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Date	Original Topic
9th August 2005	Revolvers By Dawn I know the officers had revolvers. Most popular types were the Webley and the Adams. Can any one tell me how many rounds they held? Dawn
Date	Replies
9th August 2005	Paul Mercer Dawn 6 rounds, One of the less authentic bits of 'Zulu' was Stanley Baker taking a shot at the Zulu riflemen on the hill, its unlikely the bullet would have even gone that far, let alone actually hitting anything!"
9th August 2005	Dawn Paul 6 rounds is not much, is it? Oh, well, better than one shot at a time. In South Africa, I had a pistol that held 9 rounds, now that's a bit better! Thanks. Dawn
9th August 2005	Paul Mercer Dawn, You;re right 6 round is'nt much, but they did carry a small leather pouch with extra rounds (see Chard loading in 'Zulu') I'm not sure about the calibre of an Adams, but the Webley was .455 - large by any standard! Also, I believe that they produced a 'Manstopper' load for this revolver which was concave at the business end and would have been very useful in putting down a man who up till then had no real experience and threfore fear of bullets. In fact, some officers in South africa armed themselves with a doudle barrelled .577 pistol, I'll bet that kicked! Out of interest, I read somewhere that at Omdurman in the Sudan when fighting the Dervish army the bulk of our troops had Lee Metford .303 rifles but some were still armed with the .450 Martini-Henry and it was the Martini round that actually stopped the charging Dervishes in a shorter distance than the .303, probably because of the sheer hitting impact of the larger bullet. Not nice at all!
9th August 2005	Michael Boyle Dawn, Keep in mind that in 1879 officers were not provided with handguns so they purchased their own, as a result many types were in use. Judging by subsequent comments the Zulus were not particularly impressed by them and those captured from the British seem to have been retained more as status symbols. There seems to have been little training in their use apart from officers plinking at birds during sea transit. Handguns were often seen as a menace in camp due to accidental discharges and were somtimes prohibited from being left loaded. (See the "Red Book" for accounts of [occaisionally] humourous incidents.) For more information and pictures see: http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/pistols/armpr.htm (Also explore the site) http://www.geocities.com/faskew/Colonial/Weapons/ ColSmArm.htm You might also try to get hold of a copy of " REVOLVERS OF THE BRITISH SERVICES, 1854-1954 by W.H.J. Chamberlain & A.W.F. Taylerson, I haven't recieved my copy yet but from the description it seems that revolvers were issued to ORs. MAB
9th August 2005	Dawn Paul, Micheal Thanks for the info. I'll get onto the websites for a look. Dawn
10th August 2005	Paul Cubbin In practise many revolvers only held 5 rounds as an empty chamber was left under the hammer to prevent accidents. The pistol was seen as a last resort (as officers weren't meant to fight too often) and was mostly used at well under 10 yards where a hit was pretty much guaranteed (unless you're the French Prince Imperial and can't hit a cow's bum with a banjo).
10th August 2005	Coll Paul Although mentioned on a previous topic, was it not Lt. Pope or Lt. Godwin-Austen who shot at, and hit, a Zulu with (4?) bullets, but the warrior still managed to kill him ? So, I guess, hitting the target doesn't exactly guarantee he'll fall down dead, or even waver. Coll PS. I didn't know the Prince played the banjo !
10th August 2005	Glenn Wade To be fair Paul, Louis was using his left hand, not his right which was what he used. (Unless like his Great Uncle he was ambidextrous!) Glenn
10th August 2005	Paul Cubbin Coll, yes he was a famous banjo player (it comes with having a limited gene pool I'm told - if I do the actions and notes from 'Deliverance' you can't hear or see them so I won't). Chelmsford was also a famous tuba player and he would accompany Louis while Queen Victoria played the spoons.
10th August 2005	Coll Paul That conjures up a scary image. I have to ask. All bands need a lead singer. So, who would that be and what would be the song ? Coll
10th August 2005	Adrian Whiting Dawn, Further to officers - who tended to privately purchase their revolvers - revolvers were issued to Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of Infantry, and their equivalents in the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Cavalry and certain other Corps. I can provide more specific details if that helps, as the above is rather a generalism. The first breech loading pistols were conversions of Deane & Adams muzzle loaders, so were five shot cylinders. Adam's breech loaders were then introduced, purpose made with six shot cylinders. The calibre was .455", with the round staying in service until 1895. To ensure here were sufficient revolvers in service, Tranters were contracted to supply for the same purposes, and their revolvers used the same service round. In addition Webley RIC (Royal irish Constabulary) revolvers were also introduced (pre AZW) but in .442", thus creating a further supply headache. All were duly superceded by the Enfield revolver in 1880. Although this intially was permitted to be used with the Adam's round, a new round, again in .455", was intoroduced along with it, and 1881 completely replaced it for use in that revolver, save in emergencies (until 1895). I hope this helps Adrian
10th August 2005	Michael Boyle Adrian, Would officers then have been able to draw on battalion pistol ammunition as well? (I'm somewhat confused by Bromhead having lent out some of his personal rounds.) Also could you tell us how much pistol training and practice was offered? (I have a book on the way which may address this but who knows, you are one of the 'go-to guys' for period small arms after all!) Thanks, Michael
10th August 2005	Dawn Coll Having lived and worked amongst Zulu, I will tell you that they are amazingly resillient. Once one fell from a great height, got up and complained of a head ache! In the heat of battle, with the adrenaline flowing and the indunas egging them on, there is no wonder they could be shot 4 times and still not lie down. So who was it? Pope or Godwin-Austen? And the singer? Rolf Harris. The song? "Tie me Kangeroo down, sport" I know, wrong era, wrong country but you've the one pulling the leg. Dawn
10th August 2005	Coll Dawn It could have been either of them as both wore monocles and the Zulu description of the lone officer still firing while his fellow officer fell dead or wounded really makes it hard to decide for sure. However, I think it is widely thought to have been Lt. Pope (I don't know why) and the poor guy struggled to remove the thrown spear from his chest before the Zulu killed him. Yes. Although Col. Durnford, the Colonial Volunteers and the battle at Isandlwana are my main interests in the AZW, the Zulus definitely are fourth on the list. Coll PS. I liked your last sentence. Glad to see you've got a sense of humour.
11th August 2005	Dawn Coll Makes me wonder how many untold stories there are. We'll never know, will we? Dawn
11th August 2005	Paul Cubbin Coll, I believe when vocals were required, Chelmsford himself would put down the tuba and do them, in the style of William Shatner. ("Lucy....in .....the sky with.....diamonds...")
11th August 2005	Dawn You guys are incorrigible! Dawn
11th August 2005	Coll Paul Good answer. But I think Chelmsford would be more of a Jazz man singing the Blues. Additionally, Crealock would be at the back playing the saxophone ! There you go, the perfect double-act, singing the Sonny and Cher song 'I Got You Babe'. A guaranteed No.1 don't you think ? Coll
11th August 2005	Paul Cubbin Coll, I would go for a 'Goon Show' theme, with Chelmsford singing melody in a nasal whine and backing singers warbling the melody and harmony. "I'm walking backwards for Christmas, Across the Buffalo River,"
11th August 2005	Coll Paul You're bloody good at this. Alright. How about the birdy song (and dance) ! Can you remember it ? With a guest appearance by David Brent (Ricky Gervais) doing his famous dance moves ! Crap song. Scary dancing. Definitely guaranteed to freak the Zulus out ! Beat that. Coll
11th August 2005	John Bolden The observations about hitting power and accuracy are generally aligned with my experience. Here is some food for thought: A modern 9mm round usually has a cartridge case and powder load that approximates a revolver, slightly less but only by a few grains. The head of the round is almost semi-circular, not conical or pointed as for long guns (7.65mm etc). In my youth I once was provided with 10,000 rounds per day, a jeep and driver to go off and practice small arms fire for an Allied All-Arms shoot in West Berlin (We won).Boredom set in, after shooting the heads off of dandelions at 30yds I tested the stopping power of a soaking wet army issue blanket hung between two tree trunks. Ten 9mm rounds hit the blanet, causing it to buck and wave, not one went through. All ten 7.65mm went straight through. I repated this many times until bored again. At a range of 10-15 yards a revolver is a heavy action recoil machine, taking a split second to reaim so the first of the four hits might have been some further distance away with each successive at progressively closer distances and might well have simply expended in flesh rather than shattering bone which is the real stopping power of any close range weapon.
11th August 2005	Dawn Col and Paul Well, if Chelmsford was singing it would be a al Gary Glitter..."I'm the leader, I'm the leader, I'm the leader of the gang, I am!" John, Thanks, a voice of sobriety amongst these goons. Myself included seeing as I can't help but put in my two bits worth. So as a result of your experiment its easy to see why Pope couldn't stop the advancing Zulu with four rounds from his revolver. His was a moving target too, not a wet blanket (must be something Freudian here?) hung in the trees. Dawn
11th August 2005	Adrian Whiting Michael, Officers (usually) purchased their private revolvers in the service calibre - the Army had always intended that it would supply the necessary ammunition. However I think that quite a few offciers purchased their ammunition privately as well. Since revolver ammunition would not be nearly so plentiful as that for the service rifle, officers (and other ranks issued with a revolver) would tend to conserve a small supply. I am not entirely familiar with the circumstances under which Lt Bromhead lent out some of his own ammunition. It may well have been service ammunition that he had conserved for himself, and given the relatively small number of soldiers issued a reveolver, he may have come to view the WD ammunition as his "own". For the issued revolvers, the annual practice was rather light in content. It consisted of 12 shots fired in total. These were fired at a bullseye style target (known as a 3rd class target), at a distance of 30 paces. The first 6 rounds were fired using the right hand, the second six using the left. The revolver was unsupported, i.e. the disengaged hand was rested against the side of the body and not allowed to support the other hand in any way. The doctrine at the time (my reference being Musketry Instruction in the 1880s) included that the revolver was a weapon of last resort, and could be fired either single or double action. From references during action in India in 1857, I doubt too many shots in action were fired single action (unless that is all the revolver was capable of !). The official observation was not to use it at ranges greater than 50 yards. In my experience of handgun shooting, this would be pretty optimistic for such a firearm anyway. Always happy to provide further details if you want to contact me off forum - to a limited extent I can scan from the regs etc. Thanks Adrian
12th August 2005	Michael Boyle Adrian, Thanks again. The incident I was referring to was Smith-Dorrien's account of borrowing 11 rds. from Bromhead when he returned to the Drift carrying Durnford's new orders. For some reason that struck me as odd but I suppose with all the Zulu activity seen that morning it was just expedient on S-D's part as neither could have guessed they might be needed there later in the day! (By 'his' I was reffering to the 'military possessive' as in "don't know where it came from but it's mine now". ) Of course it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence for officers to have to resort to pistols anyway. (I still find it amazing that some Great War officers went into combat with nothing more than a riding crop or swagger stick!) It's interesting that they were trained to fire ambidextrously, perhaps because one hand was supposed to be holding a sword at times, and to do it 'free hand'. (Although there were those rather intriguing pin-fire 'saber-pistols') As any modern handgun shooter can attest it takes a great deal of practice to become proficient firing unsupported. (In spite of the impression one gets from films and television!) The twelve rounds issued would seem to be in keeping with the references I've read to some home service regiments recieving only 20-30 rds. of rifle ammunition a year. Firing a period revolver (with their heavy trigger-pull) one-handed, double actioned and in close combat, one would be hard pressed to hit a specific target at ten feet let alone 50 yards! Thanks Michael
12th August 2005	Paul Cubbin John - as regards stopping power. It has been said that in the 19th century American firearms designers were obsessed with muzzle velocity whereas their British counterparts were obsessed with calibre. An obvious over-simplification, but perhaps one that is explained by the very different markets they were aiming for (wild frontiersman vs, gentleman adventurer). With the British market being very much focussed on 'manstoppers' in increasingly heavy calibres (presumably with the expected loss in accuracy) where do you think, with the benefit of hindsight, the necessary improvements could have been made? Or do you feel that the munitions, manufacturing materials and knowhow of the time held back pistol power to its historical level? Or alternatively, is this just a combination of raw Zulu courage combined with a lack of experience of being shot at that resulted their contempt for firearms? Coll - regrettably I do remember the birdie song, although through regressive therapy I am more and able to cope with the trauma of remembrance. I'm going to go for one last one. How about Chelmsford, Glyn, Bartle Frere, Durnford and Wolsely dressed as village people (long drooping moustaches already provided) singing 'In the Army'.
12th August 2005	Dawb Paul Except it was the Navy. Can't mess with the titles. We'll have to have some rules here. Dawn
12th August 2005	Coll Paul Congratulations. You win. Well done ! Coll PS. The prize ? You'll love it. All the unsold copies of the Birdie Song ! Makes me glad I lost.
12th August 2005	Paul Cubbin Dear Dawb, can't have them singing about the navy, what? Some one might think they were a bit light on their feet, what?
12th August 2005	Dawn Paul I'll stay out of it. You win! Dawn