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Date	Original Topic
21st April 2002	Clive Dickens e-mail address By Vera Bromage Clive Tried mailing you by clicking on your name but my mail is being returned. Click on my name for my e address Vera
Date	Replies
23rd April 2002	Martin Everett Dear Vera, The details of 1524 Pte Joseph Bromwich/Bromage are included in th book 'The Noble 24th' which is available for purchase from the on-line shop. Norman Holme spent some 35 years researching the soldiers who fought at Rorke's Drift and Isandhlwana - sadly he died just before publication. Naturally he got very upset when people copied and used his research without giving him credit for all his hard work. The SWB Museum has inherited Norman's notes. If you do not wish to purchase the book, then I will gladly send you the notes on Joseph Bromwich provided you make a donation to the museum to cover the cost of postage and copying. I look forward to hearing from you.
24th April 2002	Dave Nolan Why not simply buy back all of the copies of this PUBLISHED book and then keep the information secret at the Museum? If someone supplies the details which Norman Holme got from the PUBLIC Record Office,acknowledging the book, then there shouldn't be a problem. Surely that is how knowledge is advanced, not by clandestine arrangements. I mean Norman Holme acknowledged where ALL of his information came from in the book (and in Silver Wreath) didn't he? - It is my understanding that some of the people who had 'worked hard' over the years themselves and then sent the information they gathered to the Museum are acknowledged in 'Noble 24th' with '(Regimental Archive)' . I am sure they are truly grateful for such acknowledgement. I gather from other Zulu War enthusiasts that they understand much of Norman Holme's work at the PRO was done by someone else - who does get some lines of acknowledgement in the introduction. Maybe there shouldn't be an internet 'Discussion Forum' for Rorke's Drift - people can just send a letter and cheque to the Museum and then can get the information the Museum would like to supply them with and they can keep it all to themselves then - Hooray for the Internet, freedom of information and for rorkesdriftvc.com! Dave
24th April 2002	Martin Everett Dear Dave, If a person requires information about the 24th Regiment, then it will be supplied by the museum. What I think you are suggesting is that all the information about the 2,500 soldiers of the 24th Regiment who served in South Africa during 1875-1879 should be available on the Internet at no cost - technically not a problem. Let me explain to you my point of view. Running a museum, which is open 7 days a week in the summer, is costly business. We are very much dependant on entrance fees from visitors and shop sales (on-line as well) to ensure our long term future. Our archives at Brecon are freely available to anyone who wishes to use them. We answer some 15,000 individual enquiries a year – increasingly, most people seem to require instant answers by telephone and by email. This requires skilled staff on hand and quick-finding aids to able to respond effectively – remember the Anglo-Zulu war is only a short episode in our 300+ year history. Donations do help enormously to maintain this high level of service. I do not know of another military museum in Britain, which provides this almost instance service. This web site costs money to develop and to run. You are aware that much time and effort has gone into compiling information on Rorke's Drift defenders – it has a value – the cost of the book 'The Noble 24th' – which if purchased will help the museum. The cost may be cheaper in time and travel costs than a personal visit the Public Record Office at Kew. After all, the PRO does not provide the 1901 Census free of charge through the Internet. I do have in mind to have available on the web site shortly, the catalogue of our documents relating to the 1879 Anglo-Zulu war so that researchers do know what information and source documents we hold in Brecon. I would be interested in other's views on this interesting topic.
25th April 2002	Dave Nolan Martin, Thanks for answering my points. I do not agree that anyone, museum or not, should hold a monopoly on information. If someone posts a question on the internet then other people should be free to reply to them, if they have knowledge of their own or from publications (PUBLICations!), as long as those are acknowledged. If someone wants to approach the museum for information that it may hold that has not been published then fair enough. I am not after a listing on the internet of all the soldiers who took part in the Zulu War technically possible or not - that would be over 40,000 people - but I do believe in the exchange of information. Surely the point of an internet discussion forum is that people can ask about any of those participants, or any other aspoect of the War, and get a response from the enthusiasts who chose to do so. So the placing of a catalogue of your Zulu War documents online would be great - then people can know what to approach you about - but please do not say you are the only people who can supply details of participants in the War, from what I have seen on this website there are many people who may well have more information than even the museum. So, even though you did not ask for my opinion on getting a catalogue online, I think it would be a good idea. Dave
27th April 2002	Martin Everett Dear Dave, I may first reply to you I hesitated to use the word 'copyright'. If you 'publish' something on the Internet where the copyright is owned by someone else without his direct permission then you infringing copyright law. Just quoting the document reference is not the answer. As a registered museum I have to follow the law. But what I am probably saying they are a lot of people behind the scenes who are working hard to provide this service on this web site - the discussion forum - free of charge 24 hours a day. It would be nice if when someone receives useful information through the discussion forum that they show their appreciation in a tangible way by giving a donation to keep the service running. Everyone from time to time needs a 'thank you'. Remember, if someone uses an extract from 'The Noble 24th' without the museum's permission then that is a sale or donation the museum has lost. There are many people out there who are during serious research into the soldiers who fought in South Africa; nothing prevents them from quoting from their own research in reply if they wish. But as the museum holds the rights of 'The Noble 24th' , I am bound to protect those rights and in this regard I am no different to other museums and archives around the world. The museum and its valuable archives need to be around for the next 100 years or so for future generations of AZW enthusiasts. Martin
27th April 2002	James Garland Martin, Please would you clear up a point about copyright for me. If as in the "Noble 24th" the book uses official records i.e. the soldiers service records, does the copyright start from the date that they were published in the book or from the date the records were created? Also does anyone know of a good internet source on copyright law?
28th April 2002	Martin Everett Dear James, Certainly I will locate a web site which a has a good definition of copyright law for you. There is probably something already on copyright on the Public Record Office site www.pro.gov.uk Compiling information on soldiers who fought in the AZW is not easy. Probably less than 50% of the service papers have survived; none from those who fought at Isandhlwana. So there is much searching to be done in secondary records, pay & muster lists, local archives, personal accounts, parish and census records, local newspapers etc. There are a number of dedicated people working on this and I take my hat to them - it is really more than just the soldier's service career, but to understand more about the man himself. It is painstaking work to compile an accurate record and therefore these researchers add value to the original data and can claim copyright for their efforts once published as long as they have cleared their sources. The work undertaken by Norman Holme on the medal rolls of the 24th has long been used by the PRO staff themselves as a quick reference to aid to answer queries. Please remember we are not denying anyone information they request. Just stand back and think that someone has spent hours searching through old records to come up with information in a easy digestible form. It is nice to receive a donation from a grateful member of the public for the research we have undertaken. Remember also the stakes are high with RD campaign medals are reaching �11,000 and of course the proud owners of these medals wish to know as much detail as they can about the recipient. It is really all about acknowledging the efforts of these researchers in a tangible and sensible way rather than having a 'absolute free for all'. The latter approach would perhaps mean everyone would jealously guard their efforts and keep the information to themselves. This would be a retrograde step. Martin
28th April 2002	Lee Stevenson I�m not sure if this is going to help things or just confuse them further, but with regard to the question of copyright of material from the Public Record Office. When preparing my book on JH Reynolds last year, the staff at the PRO offered the following advice on the �use� of PRO documents. As long as the contents of the files used are �official� papers and correspondence, including letters from other officers, they are all Crown copyright. This would not be the case if some of the contents were, for instance letters from members of the particular individual�s family. The Crown waives its copyright in the contents of unpublished public records, so you are free to quote or transcribe the contents of Crown copyright material at any length. The �Public Record Office� should be acknowledged as the source including the original document reference. Lee
28th April 2002	James Garland Martin and Lee, Thankyou for your help. I do like the idea of having an online catalogue of documents held at Brecon. I use the Hendon Newspaper Library a lot for research and usually look up the relevant references on their web site before I visit. It allows me to get the articles I'm after a lot quicker than if I just turned up. I think you will find that it encourages more visitors to the museum.
29th April 2002	Julian Whybra This whole question of reproducing information already in the public domain is vexing. Between 1970 and 1980 I went regularly to the PRO and copied much of the information already in The Silver Wreath and The Noble 24th. When asked for help, I freely use the information from my notes and make it clear that these come from the PRO - this information largely consists of names, ranks, numbers, payroll info, promotions, etc., and can barely be described as 'text covered by someone else's intellectual copyright'. When last year part of my book The Roll Call, containing information of this sort, was reproduced (albeit unwittingly) with annotations on this very website - the whole thing was sorted out amicably and was subsequently acknowledged - indeed I have no problem with a frre exchange of information of this sort. As another example, pages 377-381 from The Noble 24th are an unacknowledged crib from David Jackson's 'Isandhlwana The Sources Reexamined'. No doubt dear Norman altogether forgot the acknowledgement. What can be galling is when one finds original research, text and ideas reproduced and claimed by someone else.
29th April 2002	Clive Dickens I feel I must reply because I started this entire ARGUMENT/DISCUSSION ,a lady merely asked for help in the discussion page in tracing her ancestor,I in my eagerness to help offered to scan the page from "The Noble 24th" which dealt with the soldier she wished to learn more about.now this was not for any monetry gain on my part or was intended to be published in any paper,journal or book.it was just for the ladies private use only,but I was e-mailed privately by Martin Everett the curate of the museum RRW who was most displeased to say the least I have twice e- mailed with apoligies becuse it was NEVER my intention to offend, but as yet he has not had the common courtesy or good manners to reply, but I find it very petty to say the least, he has stated in a recent letter to the forum that the museum relies on sales at the museum to help with it's upkeep , I am only too aware of this fact I hjave purchased many items costing a grate deal of money from the museum shop I have also waived the offer of an o.a.p reduced admission so with my wife the museum had gained on every time we have visited which has been very often, but as an oap I also know only too well of the cash retraints we have to observe, so when the lady in question stated she was retired I took it quite naturally that she was a pensioner and at � 25 + postage the book just for one paragraph was just to much. that is why I offered to do a scan, I sujjest that Martin joins the real world and loks at the difficulties others have and not be so petty in his thinking. Clive Dickens
29th April 2002	Clive Dickens Sorry please substitute GREAT cLIVE
29th April 2002	Martin Everett Dear Clive, The lady has already contained me and the information about Pte Bromwich has been supplied to her. I can only apologise for not responding to you. Martin