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Date	Original Topic
30th April 2002	Copyright Law - the saga continues By Dave Nolan In his reply to me in the 'Vera Bromage' thread Martin Everett said "Dear Dave, I may first reply to you I hesitated to use the word 'copyright'. If you 'publish' something on the Internet where the copyright is owned by someone else without his direct permission then you infringing copyright law. Just quoting the document reference is not the answer. " I have spoken to a friend who works for an international firm of solicitors and he told me to look up 'fair use' as regards copyright law - looking through such stuff on the internet the best description I could find was at http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/pubdomai.htm From which, using 'fair use', I quote "FAIR USE. The fair use provision of copyright laws allows for copying and distributing portions of copyrighted works without the copyright holder's permission. What counts as fair use is even less clear than determining copyright status The fair use code (US Code Title 17 Section 107) provides a test for fair use. The critical wording of the code is as follows: "[T]he fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies . . . for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -- (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work [i.e., text vs. music]; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. . . ." This is very similar to what other internet sites say on the matter. An awfully longwinded way of saying for private research a 'fair' amount of quotation is allowed as long as a document reference is given, which has been my argument all along. How else can knowledge be advanced without quoting those that have gone before? - how does the quote go about 'standing on the shoulders of giants'? And Norman Holme was a giant in the world of historical research into the 24th Regiment. Anyway now that I have addressed the legal aspect I have another altogether more worrying point to make. Several people, who have been regular contributors to this forum, have contacted me direct to say how much they endorse what I have been saying and that they no longer feel they want to contribute to the site as they have been intimidated by the comments about sharing research made here. Perhaps people will have to approach others directly from now on for information, paying for it, rather than sharing in the community that had built up on this site and knowledge will be kept in tight groups rather than shared. A very sad state of affairs, indeed, perhaps the battle is lost after all - "time to save the colours, Mr Melvill." And we all know how that story finished.... Dave PS I do find it wonderfully old fashioned to refer to authors' copyright in general as 'his' (see above) - well done, mate!
Date	Replies
1st May 2002	James Garland Dave, I have to say I think you are being unfair to Martin Everett. He hasn't said he wants to keep the information to himself in fact he passed on the details of "Bromwhich" to the enquirer. All museums who keep staff to answer enquiries rely on contributions to ensure their continued existance, so they can maintain a service. You seem to be confusing the issues surrounding copyright with the issue of museums providing a service. If I owned the copyright on an article and you wanted me to photocopy part of it and post it to you I dont think it would be too much to ask that you paid for the photocopying and postage. For you to then go on to say that this requirement was tantamount to hoarding information is a complete distortion of Martin Everetts position.
1st May 2002	Vera Bromage HELLO BOYS Monday 1st May 2002 10.30 am (the morning post has been and gone and nothing for me) When I receive the info in question I shall let you know my thoughts on the matter - seeing as how I started this discussion. Regards Vera
1st May 2002	CLIVE DICKENS I feel really sorry for Vera and her husband only wanted information on a soldier of the 24th Regt who MAY be an ancestor and I myself came in to help her quite innocently came in to help. the whole thing has snowballed out of proportion , Vera and her husband Dez must be wondering what on earth have they done and all this is thanks to Martin I would think it would be in order for him to return thier cheque and give them the information he has at hand free togeather with an apoligy to them also. Clive
1st May 2002	Martin Everett Dear Vera, The information has been sent to you together with a copy of his service papers and location of the battalion. This is more than a scan of the entry in 'The Noble 24th' which Clive promised. As a norm we use second class post. I regret I am sometimes unable to do things instantously but we are answering some 15,000 enquiries a year. Clive You could come to the museum in brecon and help us answer this queries to get a feel for what we do - you would be most welcomed. As I said before I would be keen to hear of a another regimental museum which provides a better service. Please remember that the museum financed the publication of Norman Holme's book in the first place in order to make the lives of men who served in that difficult campaign in 1879 more readily available to the many ABW enthusiasts around the world. As far as I know only one other regiment has been done - the 80th. Perhaps, there is someone out there who like to take on the research for one of the other regiments who took part in AZW. There's a challenge! Martin
2nd May 2002	Clive Dickens Martin, Thank you very much on the offer in fact I will take you up on that invitation if I may in fact my wife and myself will be in Brecon for the week-end 29& 30 June to come to yor jubilee celebrations and to visit once again your very fine museum I will make myself known to you if I may and then I can promise you that I will be "ALL EARS" Thank you CLIVE
2nd May 2002	Clive Dickens I think we should ALL bury this subject now Vera has been sent her information Dave Nolan , myself and ther's have put in our point and Martin has also put his own point of view I think we have learned something from which has proved a very frank and open discussion but at the end of the day we are ALL interested in the same piece of history so let us move on and look at future discussions. before our very hard working web master Peter goes around the bend. Clive
2nd May 2002	Dez Bromage To all concerned with the "saga" of J. Bromwich and the information pertaining to him. This is just a short thank you to all concerned, particularly Martin. This turned into a real bag of worms. My wife Vera is a very enthusiastice researcher, and like a terrier wont let go until curiosity is satisfied. We have bought and watched the film Zulu again with renewed interest particularly bearing in mind the discrepensies mentioned on this excellent web site. I do not know as yet if Joseph is one of my forebears but given Vera's qualities, I'm sure to find out one way or the other particularly with the help offered by all on the site and from the Museum. If and when we find out we will let you know too. We are only too delighted to offer a donation in recognition of the very good work done for the Noble 24th. Once again, Many thanks Martin for the information, and to everyone else for your interest. If we can return the favour, we wil be delighted so to do. Dez (Joseph) Bromage
3rd May 2002	Dave Nolan Dez and Vera, Glad you got what you were after - and more than just the entry from 'The Noble 24th' which is something that could have been legally ('fair use' see above) provided by many of the knowledgeable enthusiasts on this forum. That is where a museum can be of great help, providing more than is in the public domain. The 'bag of worms' has done the forum a favor in establishing that it is OK to post short attributed quotes for the purposes of research, so thank you. Dave
3rd May 2002	Vera Bromage Martin, Clive, Dave, James, Lee, Julian, Pete webmaster and all. Thank you so very much for the information received - plus the entertainment on the forum. I have the site on Favourites so I shall keep checking now and then. Any info I can add to the museum regarding Joseph will be passed on to you, with pleasure. Thanks again Best wishes Vera Bromage, Manchester