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DateOriginal Topic
20th November 2002VC'S of THE ANGLO/ ZULU WAR
By Clive Dickens
I hope our web master does not mind my putting this item in the Discussion column, but I consider it to be of interest, A company based in Malvern Worcestershire is now producing framed drawings of VC winners of the Anglo/Zulu War both of Rorkes drift and other battles together with pen pictures of the acts of Valour and with replica VC'S I have seen them and they are quite simply superb, they have a web site with all details and I enclose that it is as follows=www.vcforvalour.com. I think evryone will agree they are simply lovely and very well produced.
Clive
DateReplies
21st November 2002Frank Muscal
Just curious - the pen picture of Cpl. Schiess.
What was it based on? I believe at one time RDVC.com had a picture of Schiess but it was speculation at the time and has since been removed.
21st November 2002John Young
Frank,

I'm curious too about Schiess.

I'm also curious about "Saving the colours at Kambula" & a Khambula picture being used for Ntombe on the battles link.
22nd November 2002Peter Critchley
No problem Clive. None whatsoever.

Good link!

Peter
24th November 2002Clive Dickens
John
I must agree that is quite an howler on the Colours at Kambula as for the engraving featured then I will take your word on that you are the expert on that, but please do not let these mistakes turn you off he is avery youngman with obviously a bit to learn but I can assure you he has made a very good job with the VC frames,
Frank
I canot see the mystery on the engraving of Cpl Schiess , I do not believe he was in Victorian style S.A.S and wished to hide his face, I have seen an actual photograph of Cpl Schiess and the engraving bears a very gooid likeness, the sams photograph is in The National Army Museum in London and also in the South African Army Museum in Pretoria South Africa. you can also see this photograph of him featured in a very fine set of books by David Harvey "Monuments of Courage" which has every VC winner since the awards conception with details such has place of birth death enlistment and service with details of graves and where situated. mind they are very costly due to the research that has gone into them they are around �80.00 but I believe it is now possible to get them cheaper from the Naval & Military press, but at the end of the day I think you could get any Victorian soldier and he will look like another in fact I have a photograph of my own grandfather in the uniform of the Worcestershire Regiment with Swagger Cain , Blue Cloth Helmet and Handlebar moustache and he looks a dead wringer for Pte Harry Hook VC.
Clive
24th November 2002John Young
Clive,

(Just visiting on someone's p.c., by the way.)

There is no known photograph of Cpl. C.F. Schiess V.C. I don't know which one David Harvey used, I'll e-mail him and ask, but it cannot be Schiess! Don't ask me why but the man must have been camera-shy.

There is a fleeting description of him in D.H. Parry's 'Britain's Roll of Glory':- 'A hospital patient named Schiess, of the 3rd Natal [Native Contingent], a short, fair man and a Swiss by birth...' That is sadly the best description I know of him.

Canon William Lummis in his "Padre George Smith of Rorke's Drift' on pages 50-51, mistakenly concluded a photograph to be the defenders of Rorke's Drift, when in fact it was the former 58th Foot, post 1881, at Fort Northampton, Rorke's Drift. In that he wrongly identifies a man as being Schiess - as well as a number of other defenders.

Hope this helps,

John Young,
Chairman,
A.-Z.W.R.S.
25th November 2002Andy Lee
Clive

How can you describe 'Monuments to Courage' in your words "very costly" SHOCKING you should be mighty ashamed of such remarks. Considering the research and the voluntary contribution to the Star and Garter �80 is extremely cheap.

Andy
25th November 2002Clive Dickens
John
Like I have said before I am still learning( Mainly from yourself and Martin Everett), but I hope David Harvey clears the matter up, but the photograph he use's is the sams as the one in The National Army museum both in London and the S African army museum in Pretoria. but I think you will agree any photograph of Victorian soldiers are so alike it is easily done to pass off any as someone else.
Clive
25th November 2002Clive Dickens
Andy
You are so correct of course they are worth the money, but we must remember a price which comes easy for some people is very expensive for others.but yes the research David Harvey has put into this work is outstanding and to myself and obviously you yourself the books are well worth the�80
Clive
25th November 2002Andy Lee
Clive

Well said mate - hope you did not take my comments as a personal attack.

Andy
25th November 2002Peter Ewart
Always wondered about that photo in Lummis! Was confident it had been wrongly attributed, partly because of its absence (with such a caption) from any other reliable account of R/Drift and partly because Lummis's work contains quite a few errors, even on Smith himself.

I had presumed that if it really was a group from the 24th then it was taken somewhere else, or if was at R/Drift, it was after 22 Jan. (He doesn't actually name Schiess, does he, simply mentioning an "unkown trooper of the NMP" but amazingly places an "identity" on most of the others, from what implied source I don't know). Nice to have that picture identified now - being the 58th, no doubt some of them were the cricketers of Jly 1879!!!)

One hesitates to criticise Lummis, a soldier & clergyman who had already produced a number of military and local histories (which I haven't read). Some sources, both primary & secondary, simpy weren't available to him then. His little monograph on Smith appears to have been a labour of love, intended to pay tribute to a fellow traveller. More to the point, I suspect the author was acutely aware of the passing of time, with the 1979 centenary fast approaching and publication taking place when Lummis himself was 92!

It is a pity that he introduced quite a number of biographical errors, leading to some of his statements been relied upon by AZW historians during the last 20 years and repeated in their own works. For example, Smith didn't go to South Africa when Lummis said he did, nor was he ordained by Colenso. Unfortunately (especially for a clergyman!) the author not only repeatedly confused Colenso with McCrorie (of whom he seems to have been completely unaware) but this then led to a misunderstanding by Lummis of Smith's position & views on Colenso, which are rather inconsistent as published in the book, mainly because the author wrongly identified some of the references to "the Bishop."

He did, however, usually correctly describe Smith's orthodox (& therefore anti-Colenso, anti-Langalibele & pro-Colonist) views, thereby concurring with, among others, D.R. Morris and Ian Knight (& Rider Haggard, of course!!!) Lummis has misread the handwriting (so will I, no doubt, at 92!) in some primary sources and, in so doing, wrongly attributed quotations and even unwittingly invented at least one person who didn't exist. The date/chronology/juxtaposition of some of the missionary reports has been misunderstood, leading to confusion & further errors, and the famous Charles Johnson is wrongly bestowed with the title of "Canon" at a time when he was not even a clergyman.

However, he has correctly named Smith's birthplace, for some reason mistakenly recorded on the "Victorian Voices" site (details of which have been imported into this site).

Peter
25th November 2002Clive Dickens
Andy
Not a bit I should have worded it better anyway
Clive
25th November 2002James Garland
Peter,
re "Smith's birthplace, for some reason mistakenly recorded on the Victorian Voices site"
There is no reference at all on the Victorian Voices site to Smiths birthplace. My site doesn't cover biographical details of the defenders mainly because my knowledge of that aspect of Rorke's Drift is particularly lacking.
There are plenty of other mistakes on the site but that isn't one of them.
I am working on a new version of the site with mistakes rectified. Fingers crossed.

James
26th November 2002Peter Ewart
James

I do beg your pardon. Having read your note I've looked again at the piece on Smith on the RDVC site and can now see that it is not his potted biography that has been imported from (& acknowledged to) "Victorian Voices" but his Diary account of the Defence of R/Drift only.

Please accept my apologies for getting that wrong - I didn't re-check first by looking at the Smith piece again before typing the last para, which, if one is supposedly correcting something, is probably a cardinal sin!

Needless to say, I find the Victorian Voices site fascinating & look forward to the new version.

Peter
17th June 2003Tarquin Shaw-Young
I am the creator of the website and the v.c's of Rorke's Drift www.vcforvalour.com. I appreciate the comments but I was well aware from the outset thet the web designers had gotten my pictures in the wrong order I did make a note of this at the time to any prospective customers. I can asure you that it took time to rectify because of the location of my provider but it is now corrected. I myself would not have nbeen so niave as to put such misleading information. I am quite wll versed in matters of the zulu war and would not have embarked on such an important project had it not been so. I welcome any comments on the frames which sell world wide. Schiess is as close a representation as it is possible to get. I have had no complaints so far.
10th May 2004Hannah
Please name someone working in hospital at Rorke's Drift.