| Date | Original Topic |
| 2nd December 2002 | bayonet markings
By glynne
Hi there
would anyone know what the three numbers on the frog stud of a Martini bayonet scabbard
would indicate. I think the numbers are 279
thanks |
| Date | Replies |
| 3rd December 2002 | Barry Iacoppi N.Z.
I have a Martini Henry socket bayonet that has a very clear �404� stamped in the same place. I don�t think you can learn much from this number alone.
Refer to the thread �Captured Rifles� at the top of page two on this forum.
I think it is the equivalent to a rack number that would allow one soldier to tell his bayonet scabbard from another. The same number could well be used by a number of regiments. I know a collector who is adamant that individual Martini bayonets were hand fitted to specific rifles and numbered as such. I for one doubt that this was true. In my limited experience I have found that any clean socket will fit any rifle.
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| 3rd December 2002 | Martin Everett
Dear Glynne,
I have a number of books which cover the marking on the MH rifle and bayonet. I will see whether there is clue - or you could come to Brecon and look it up yourself.
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| 3rd December 2002 | glynne
thanks for your reply,Barry.
Thanks Martin, next time i'm
in Brecon I'll do that.
cheers |
| 4th December 2002 | Martin Everett
For those of you who wish to know all about the MH rifle there is a two volume set called 'A Treatise on the British Military Martini' by B A Temple and I D Skennerton, republished in 1995/6. ISBN 0 9596108 7 1 We obtained our copies from Selous Books Ltd, 40 Station Rd, Aldershot GU11 1HT, tel 01252 333611 (whether they still trade I do not know). For those of you on the otherside of the world B A Temple seems to come from Lot 3 Woodford Road, Kilcoy, Queensland 4515. Volume 1 contains the marking details of the rifle and the bayonet.
I trust this helps. |
| 4th December 2002 | Adrian Whiting
Glynne,
The Equipment Regulations 1866 and 1881 both required that the bayonet scabbard stud be marked with the sequential number only, i.e. the unit ownership markings were not applied - I guess since they would not easily fit !
The 1881 regulations are quite clear in saying that the number to marked is the same one as on the rifle, i.e. the rifle's rack number (as opposed to its serial number), however Barry is quite right when he says that the bayonets were not specifically "hand fitted" to a particular rifle, one of the principal features of the Martini was that it was considered "interchangeable", one bayonet should fit onto any rifle of the right type. |
| 5th December 2002 | Barry Iacoppi N.Z.
I take it then Adrian that the number on the scabbard should match the number on the bayonet and rifle? While I know of scabbards with matching numbers to bayonets I have yet to see all three together. I guess that the chances of a matching combination staying together for a 100 years or more is remote but a collector can dream. |
| 5th December 2002 | Adrian Whiting
Barry,
That's certainly my understanding from the text of the regulations. I expect it made it far easier to check each soldier had his own issued rifle/bayonet/scabbard than if each item could have a different number.
Likewise though, I have yet to see that combination survive together ! |
| 5th December 2002 | glynne
thanks Adrian
any idea which bayonet was used in the Zulu war?
Would it be the 1853 17inch
or the 1876 22inch
or a combination? |
| 6th December 2002 | Adrian Whiting
Glynne,
All the ones that I have seen that purport to have either been recovered from the battlefields or saw action and were not lost are the 1853 pattern, bushed for the MH rifle.
I think this accords with the photographic evidence, and the fact that both 24th battalions received their Martinis during, or close, to 1873, thus predating the 1876 pattern.
I am not certain on the pattern used by other battalions/units. |
| 18th June 2003 | Royal Aubrey Davis
I am trying to locate a list of the serial numbers for the rifles used at either rorkesdrift or Isandalwana. I have an early Martini Henry which was supposed to have been taken by the natives and I am trying to establish a provenance. Thanks |
| 20th June 2003 | Barry Iacoppi N.Z.
Please do tell us more about this rifle. What MK is it and what markings does it have? I have been in contact with a gentleman in the U.K. who assures me that he has a Martini that was used at Rorke�s Drift. He has no written providence just a story from the last owner. To the best of my knowledge records of the serial numbers (not visible unless the rifle is striped of its forend) have rarely survived. |
| 21st June 2003 | Adrian Whiting
Royal,
The lists showing which soldier had which sequentially numbered rifle were kept at Company level. Martin Everett has kindly provided one such example list that is within the collection of the Regimental Museum. It is not a from a Company involved in either action though. Hopefully one or more of the lists may come to light in the future, but I suspect many were lost in the fighting and aftermath.
Even so, there is quite a bit of work that can be done in relation to provenancing a MH rifle from it's mark and markings. Unfortunately this tends to show that a rifle could not have been used, and unless the regimental markings have survived (pretty unlikely since they were stamped into the wooden butt) then conclusive proff is usually difficult.
If you know the mark of your rifle, and can describe its markings there are several of us using this forum that can probably help!
Thanks
Adrian |
| 29th July 2003 | graeme
hi there,
i have recently found a martini henry .45 rifle in an attic. I am having some problems dating it. Is there an easy way to determine what mark and year of manufacture. It isnt in the best condition and as such the only markongs i can find are 3864 stamped on the barrel (chamber end). I am no expert on guns so simple help would be good. |
| 29th July 2003 | Barry Iacoppi
Hi Graeme
This site should be of some help to you. Or you could send a photo and more details direct to me and I'd try and help.
http://www.martinihenry.com/
Barry
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