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Date	Original Topic
3rd December 2002	Most experienced soldier present? By John Young Whilst searching for Dr. Greaves' details of the Zulu movements on the morning of 23rd January, 1879, in an effort to make a comment on Clive's earlier question, I came upon a rather intriguing comment with regard to Colour Sergeant Frank Edward Bourne, D.C.M. Dr. Greaves contends that Bourne was possibly the most experienced soldier present at the Defence of Rorke's Drift. His knowledge was acquired on firing-ranges and in battle. Now I know that Frank Bourne was later involved in the instruction of musketry, which might account for one comment. But how does Dr. Greaves deduce that his battlefield experience was in anyway more than that of say James Langley Dalton? Who had seen extensive service in the 9th Cape Frontier War. Or even C.F. Schiess for that matter? Who had seen previous service in the French Army between 1870 (or 1871) to 1876, possibly, as Lummis contends, serving in French Foreign Legion under an assumed name. Frank Bourne's experience was limited to skirmishing in the 9th Cape Frontier War, where I believe the only action of any significance he may have been at would have been Ntaba-ka-Ndoda. Does anyone have any other suggestions for the most experience soldier present at Rorke's Drift? - On the British side that is! John Young, A.-Z.W.R.S.
Date	Replies
3rd December 2002	Lee Stevenson How about Corporal John Lyons, 2nd/24th, who served with the 57th Foot during the "Maori Wars" in New Zealand, c. 1865-6-7
4th December 2002	Barry Iacoppi N.Z. Slightly off topic. Regardless of living in New Zealand for 26 years I still know very little about the Maori wars. However if we are to compare the Zulu to the Maori there is one thing that springs to my mind immediately. Many moons ago I read a book called �Boots over Africa�. It was a compilation of letters sent home by British serviceman in Africa. In one of the letters a soldier comments that he has the utmost respect for the Zulu as a fighting man. He then adds that the Zulu is almost as good as the Maori. Praise indeed.
4th December 2002	Martin Everett I think it easy to fall into the trap to think that with Victoria's 'little wars' that the British Army was full of men with battle experience. Take the 1/24th after 22 January 1879 - the next time that battalion came under fire was in August 1914.
4th December 2002	PETER HARMAN I agree with John. I may be wrong but was it Bromhead who gave an order to strike camp and had even loaded some wagons before Dalton made his Intervention.He said that if we leave the Drift every man was certain to be killed.It was excellent tactical advise.Chased by over 4.000 highly mobile Zulus warriors,such a slow moving convoy of men and waggons,heavily encumbered by 30 odd sick men. Again John I totally Agree with you JAMES LANGLEY DALTON was certainly the most experienced soldier present at Rorke's Drift.
4th December 2002	Peter Ewart Yes, it has to be Dalton. But what about combined active service, both before & after? Dunne saw action in the 9th Frontier, then R/Drift, then Sekukuni, then 1st ABW. But to beat all comers I submit good old Parson Smith: the fag-end of the Langalibalele/Bushman's Pass Rebellion (just); R/Drift; Ulundi; Tel-el-Kebir, El Teb & Ginnis. "Don't swear boys, just shoot!" Peter
5th December 2002	Keith Smith I'm really quite surprised that this is an issue at all; after all, Bourne was only 25 years old at RD. There were probably a number of men with more service experience but Dalton left him for dead.
5th December 2002	Keith Smith Whoops! Made something of a gaffe in my reply to this. My apologies for my unintended reference to leaving Bourne for dead - very poor taste in restrospect. Sorry again Keith
8th December 2002	Paul Ellis Going back to John's original question, I'm not sure that John has correctly quoted Dr Greaves. Greaves' reference to Bourne is in a paragraph relating to B Company - see p 80 of his Rorke's Drift book, and this book has the first reference I had ever heard about Bourne leading a skirmishing line to head off the advancing Zulus. After all, poor old Bourne got not a single mention in Donald Morris's Washing of the Spears (God bless him) and only a single mention of receiving the DCM in John's own book, They fell like Stones. On another matter, wasn't Bourne outranked by Colour Sgr. Mabin? regards to all, Paul
8th December 2002	John Young Dear Paul, You've thrown the down the gauntlet - and I shall take it up. On page 80 of his work - 'Rorke's Drift', Dr. Greaves mentions that Frank Bourne had held a command in action on more than one occasion. That is a factual error and a misrepresention. Where had he done so? I have suggested above the only main, I wouldn't call it major, action, that he may, and I stress may, have previously been in action. I am also sorry that you haven't troubled to read 'The Battle' link on the side column on this site, in piece entitled the 'Detailed Description', which was actually written by myself, when there was only one society, and no limited company with an alike name, and you will discover that as long ago as 1995, for that is when I presented the piece at Brecon - I have made mention of the skirmishers under Frank Bourne. I certainly make more than the one I made in "They Fell Like Stones". Like the South African critic you also seem to have missed the purpose of that work. As to not correctly quoting Dr. Greaves, might I suggest you read page 136 of his work, and then answer your own question, as to whether I have misquoted Dr. Greaves? On the subject of Frank Bourne, why has Dr. Greaves opted to exclude the very same sentences that the late Norman Holme did, when they have both transcribed Frank Bourne's article from 'The Listener'? I suggest that neither of them could answer it? At least I endeavoured to in August of 1998, when I annotated the article, which is more than can be said for either of them. Please don't take everything that Dr. Greaves has written in his book 'Rorke's Drift' as gospel, it is far from it! The work is riddled with factual errors! As to George W. Mabin, I will stand to be corrected on this, but I believe his rank on 22nd-23rd January, 1879 was that of sergeant. I know that some have in the past seen the words 'Staff' & 'Sergeant', and possibly thought it was his rank - and rendered it as Staff Sergeant. He was a Sergeant on the Staff. I hope that clears that one up? In await your reply, Yours, John Young, Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.
8th December 2002	John Young Dear Paul, Just to withdraw one comment above. The version of my 1995 lecture given on this site is actually slightly abridged, and excludes the fact the infantry picquet was commanded by Frank Bourne. However, it still mentions their deployment and withdrawal. However, anyone who has troubled to have read Frank Bourne's account in 'The Listener' of 30th December 1936, or Norman Holme's two renditions of it in 'The Silver Wreath', published in 1979, or 'The Noble 24th', published in 1999. Bourne states, and I quote from the original article '...and to take out and command a line of skirmishers.' Having just made sure that both these works contain the above information, there is something I note of interest. In August 1998, when I annotated Bourne's article I made a footnote No. 4 of 6. In that footnote I state when referring to the carrying of Colours in action. '4; Lt.-Col. Bourne's memory is obviously at fault here. The last time that Colours were carried in battle was by the 58th (Rutlandshire) Regiment at the battle of Laing's Nek, 28th January, 1881. However, the honour for last carrying the Colours on active service goes to the 1st Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment, who carried their Colours ashore following the bombardment of Alexandria, on 11th July, 1882.' I note with interest that fact of carrying Colours in 1882, is alluded to in the 1999 version of Norman Holme's revision of the transcript, but the information appears to unsourced in the bibliography. Nor is there any reference as to who makes the remark in the text. Rather odd? Even odder is the fact Dr. Greaves makes no such explanation, nor does he give any footnote when he renders the Bourne account, still containing the original error. I'm glad I don't do this as living, like some. John Young, Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.
8th December 2002	Lee Stevenson George William Mabin; Promoted Military Staff Clerk and Sergeant, Staff of the Army, on the 20th May 1872. Promoted Colour Sergeant 20th May 1875. Appointed Superintending Clerk, Staff of the Army 19th Feb 1880. Slightly wounded in action at Rorke's Drift - a wound to his shin from a spent bullet. Might we also consider good old James Henry Reynolds, as the most 'experienced' officer present.......
8th December 2002	John Young Cheers Lee, I nearly telephoned you to ask, but with my current injury and lacking my normal second 'phone line, I never got the chance to. Many thanks, John
8th December 2002	Martin Everett Nobody has supported Pte William Jones's claim who enlisted in 1858.
9th December 2002	John Young Dear Martin, Could you please support your claim with his prior battle experience, apart from the 9th Cape Frontier War? Dalton enlisted in 1849, and although he took his discharge in 1871 - he was back as a volunteer in 1877 for the Cape Frontier War, where unlike William Jones, he saw extensive action and was 'mentioned in dispatches' for his actions at Ibeka. John Young, A.-Z.W.R.S.
9th December 2002	Lee Stevenson Not forgetting Private Henry Turner, 1st/24th who served with 'H' Company, 1st/24th and might well have been caught up in the siege of Fort Warwick, near Mpetu, Eastern Frontier campaign 1877-78, just over a year before Rorke's Drift...
10th December 2002	Bill Power All well&good! But who sorted the ruperts out?!! Dalton!
10th December 2002	Lee Stevenson Certainly not going to argue you with over Dalton's ability to sort "the ruperts out" !!? However, just to clarify his role during the Cape Frontier War, I would be interested to learn if the British encampment at Ibeka came under any sustained attack during the campaign, as occurred at Fort Warwick, or was it confined solely to the theft of commissariat oxen, as reported in the press of the day??