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Date	Original Topic
18th March 2003	Redvers Buller VC By Clive Dickens Sorry folks i will continue others say it was Khambula I myself after reading accounts of these two battles many times tend to side with the Khambula battle but can anyone give me the definate one in which he was awarded his V.C for Clive
Date	Replies
18th March 2003	Peter Ewart Clive I thought the "deed" involved rescuing three different fugitives in separate incidents on the same day during the flight from Hlobane, by getting them onto his or their horses under fire. So Hlobane, not Kambula, but I may have to stand corrected. Peter
18th March 2003	Andy Lee Clive/Peter My understanding is that Redvers BULLER VC deed was for rescuing three different fugitives in separate incidents on the same day at ' Inhlobana', Zululand on the 28 March 1879. Andy
18th March 2003	John Young Clive, You're not confusing Buller with E.S. Browne are you? For he was awarded his V.C. for Khambula, and not as the London Gazette has it at 'Inhlobana'. John Y.
19th March 2003	Clive Dickens John That is quite likely my hearing is almost as bad as my typing. also thank you to Andy and Peter for your information it isvery welcome, What does come over strange to me is however Redvres Buller himself he was obviously a ver good and brave officer with his action on Hlobane and also the way he rode out to draw the Zulu out to attack at Khambula. it seems a very different Redvers Buller to the one who gained much criticism for his general coduct in the Boer War mainly for Spion Kop what do you think on this . Clive
19th March 2003	Peter Ewart Clive I think the standard answers usually offered are: (a) commanding a whole army is a quite different role to displaying the qualities of dash, bravery & leadership for which he was renowned in 1879 at a much lower rank and on a smaller, local scale. His "mistakes" on arrival in 1899 were perhaps partly due to circumstances having changed hugely by the time he disembarked & decisions having been made over which he had no control. Therafter, he was always "chasing the game." By no means all successful junior officers make the grade to high command successfully - and many others with very high reputations also lost a bit of ground in the 2ABW. Methuen, for example (who, incidentally, played cricket for my own little club - just though |I'd mentiion that!!!) messed things up more than once, but they were, in some ways, just as unprepared for this sort of warfare as the WW1 generals were in 1914 onwards. (b) I believe he hadn't seen active service for some time & appears to have been chosen on reputation, and therefore (c) he is considered by some to have been "over the hill" by then and out of touch compared with some years previously. We must also take into account that some of the contemporary criticism of Buller may have reflected the deep & rancorous divisions in the WO at that very time and depended upon which of the two "camps" the critic inhabited. The PR machine of the Empire didn't fail him, however, and like "Bobs" and Sir Garnet, he remained a public hero, as witness the large numbers of couples who named their sons Redvers around 1900 or so. Peter
19th March 2003	Andy Lee Clive Peter is quite right in every respect. From the little I know only Lord Roberts VC and his ring were of the opinion that Redvers Buller VC was not a hero. Buller Scapegoat is a good book well worth a read. What was the saying Peter, Redvers Buller 'would fight the impy's of hell for ? Andy
20th March 2003	AMB Peter, Andy et al, I quite agree. Buller's failing in the 2ABW were not all of his own making and they certainly should not detract from his AZW reputation. There were few soldiers with his courage, dash and flair who partook in operations against the Zulu. Maybe as a commander of irregular forces during the AZW buller actually found his niche? I would be interesting to spectulate what he would have been like as a Maj/Lt Col with the W W 2 Commandos! Sorry to go off track, but whichc cricket club did Methuen play for then?
20th March 2003	Peter Ewart AMB Yes, I've just thought who Buller's "style" (1879 version) reminds me of - what about Mike Calvert, Wingate's 2IC in the first Chindit expedition of 1943, Op Longcloth. (In which my father served). As for Methuen, he played (at least twice but not regularly) for Ash (next-Sandwich) C C. And his father also did once, too. Between Eton & joining his reg't, the Hon Paul Sanford Methuen lodged at the vicarage in Ash where he was tutored by the vicar, Rev HS Mackarness, in 1862. Came back to play for us once in 1865, I suspect while attending Canterbury Cricket Week. According to the archivist at Trowbridge County Record Office he also supported local cricket at Corsham, his family seat. Actually, just googling to check which Baron he was, 2nd or 3rd, I've just found him mentioned as President of Corsham CC as early as 1864, succeeding his father - and I see WG & EM Grace played against them. This has rather pleased me as I have separate independent accounts of those two playing for us in the 1860s too, but no match report. And although I've proved that some of our players (other Old Etonians crammed by the vicar, who ran the club) knew WG, I haven't yet established for certain who was the contact. Now I see the Methuens knew him too! So thanks for asking! Apologies for getting off the track - but Methuen did serve with distinction in Bechuanaland too, so wasn't TOO far from Zululand ... Peter
20th March 2003	AMB Peter, I think Calvert & Buller would have made an interesting combination in Burma 1943/44. And the cricket was most interesting too! AMB Development Officer, Afghanistan Cricket Federation (hence the question!)
22nd March 2003	Peter Ewart AMB I don't think any of my relatives served in the AZW but my maternal grandfather did play cricket (rather unsuccessfully) for 'G' Coy, 1st Bn the Buffs in Peshawar and Nowshera at the same time as he would have preferred to have been having a pot at Piet. Only a six-hit away from your patch? (Didn't know there was such a Federation but have enjoyed their website - the Kenya of the next WC, perhaps?) That's a bit off-topic, so how about this? I believe that Col CE Luard (of Durnford papers fame) may also have played for us at Ash in the early 1860s. Without a bit more digging, however, there is a difficulty with identification, as at that time there was another chap with a similar name, initials & rank - and they both served in the RE! The Luards provided the army with quite a few officers over the years but the careers of these two progressed almost identically by rank throughout their lives, up to Maj General. One of them served mostly in India, the other in Africa, which eases things a little, and I'm still hoping to establish one day that our cricketer was the "Durnford papers" chap and also which of the two came to a sticky and scandalous end in Kent just after the turn of the century, although lack of time at present has pushed the matter into abeyance. Peter PS. His fleeting appearance was marked by a duck, going in first wicket down ...
22nd March 2003	John Young Andrew, Does "The Wolf of Kabul" still play in your eleven? JY
29th March 2003	AMB Sorry, John. Wolf of Kabul? AMB