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DateOriginal Topic
10th October 2001What Became of the Guns
By Peter Collins
Perhaps the fate of the guns at Isandhlwana is well documented. If so, would someone enlighten me.
I had the privelege of visiting Isandhlwana, Kambula and Rorke's Drift in the company of Pat Rundgren of Gunner's Rest, Dundee - an excellent guide.
We discussed the fate of the guns but couldn't arrive at a satisfactory answer.
Correct me if I'm wrong but only two guns - 7pdr RML's - took the field at Isandhlwana, under the command of Brevet Major Stuart Smith. These were lost at Fugitives Drift, carried by the Zulu's back to Ulundi, where they were subsequently recovered.
What became of them then? Given the stories that surround the loss and recovery of the Colours and given that the Royal Artillery do not take lightly the loss of their guns, I would have thought that their subsequent fate would be well documented.
The Royal Artillery museum at Woolwich, London, has on display Major Smith's cape - recovered from Fugitives Drift and bearing Assegai holes, but the staff were unable to enlighten me. One of Ian Knight's books shows a picture of a gun, mounted on a Kaffrarian carriage, on display in the Military History museum in Jo'Burg, but the legend under the photograph says 'as used at Isandhlwana' leaving some doubt as to whether this is the actual gun.
I'd be glad to hear from anyone who can tell me where the guns may now be seen, if they survived.
DateReplies
10th October 2001John Young
Peter,

The two 7lb Rifled Muzzle Loading cannon were recovered on Monday 10th August, 1879, by a patrol under the command of Major Percy Barrow, 19th Hussars. Charles Norris-Newman details the recovery on pages 236-237 of his book "In Zululand with the British..."

I actually have a photograph of the two guns taken at Ulundi, circa 1st September, 1879, beneath the Union Flag.(If you'd like I could mail this as an attachment to you?)

When I realised the importance of the photograph, I wrote to the then Royal Artillery Institute, at Woolwich, and I asked them as to the fate of the guns.
I was surprised when the then Director replied to me, thanking me for my information as they had NO RECORD of the guns being recovered.

I'm convinced that when I attended a "Royal Artillery at Home Day" back in the earlier 1960's, I was shown a cannon which I was told was one of the guns of N/5. When I queried this during a lengthy day's filming at the Rotunda, in 1993, was informed it might have been an over-enthusiast guide "spinning a yarn".

Sorry but it appears the fate of the two cannon has been lost in the mist of time.

John Young,
Chairman, Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.

11th October 2001peter collins
John,

Thanks for the information - and such a prompt reply.
Seems remarkable that the guns wouldn't have carried a certain talismanic quality after their recovery, and hence been better looked after. Maybe I'm too sentimental.
I'd certainly like to see the photograph as per your kind offer.

Regards,

Peter
22nd February 2005mark
thanks for that

i live in jhb , near the museum

i know of the gun there ,is there a serial number i could look for to determine if it actually was an isandlawana cannon?
22nd February 2005John Young
Mark,

Not that I'm aware of.

You could ask the people at Saxonwold if they have anything on the history of the cannon they have?

A copy of the photograph I have is available in the library there, or at least it was in 1991.

John Y.
14th June 2005Michael Boyle
Just came across this :

"The Graphic : December 20, 1879 : P. 606
Under – Home
DEAD FROM THE BATTLEFIELD
The bodies of Lieutenant-Colonel Northey, 60th Rifles, who fell in the battle of Ginghilovo, and Captain the Hon. E.V. Wyatt Edgell, 17th Lancers, who was killed at Ulundi, arrived last week at Woolwich in the steamship Tom Morton and were taken away in hearses for interment – that of Colonel Northey to Epsom, and that of Captain Edgell to Rugby. The same ship brought home the two guns lost at Isandlwhana, and subsequently recovered. They will be preserved as mementoes of the terrible
engagement in which they were used."

So it would seem that they are, or were, somewhere in Britain if the account is accurate. (If somewhat over optimistic as well!)

Perhaps languishing unidentified in front of some courthouse or veteran's organization?

Best

Michael
14th June 2005Michael Boyle
Actually, it does seem odd that Woolwich of all places should lose track of them after having them delivered to their doorstep. Perhaps someone in the vicinity, with a little time on their hands, could check local newspaper archives around that date and the manifest of the "Tom Morton" (where ever that may be now). It just seems a shame that the guns should be lost to history if they were in fact brought back home.
17th June 2005Michael Boyle
I've been in contact with Zane Palmer from :

http://www.palmersarmoury.co.za/

He found the the serial number of one of the guns while researching at Woolwich and imprints it on his reproductions. He also found out that one of the guns is in the States having been sold here by a buyer who acquired it from an admiral's house in Portsmouth although further information is yet lacking. (I'm guessing some time soon after the W W II when the transport would have been easy.)

(Now, where do I start....)

Best

Michael
18th June 2005Michael Boyle
Well I'm rolling now... Just heard back from an artillery dealer. (Yes we Yanks don't limit our personal collecting to just edged weapons, longarms and sidearms, there is a sizable market for artillery collectors as well!)

The gentleman informed me that a 7 pdr. RML on an "unusual carriage" had been on display for a number of years at the San Francisco Gun Exchange but when he went to buy it in 1980 it had already been sold to an antiques dealer who he was unable to locate. The provenance of the gun was "from an estate or mansion in England" though no further specifics were inquired and the gentleman who originally bought it is sinced deceased.

Apparently in recent years a fair number of 7 pdr. RMLs have made there way to the States but to his knowledge that was the first. I'm not getting my hopes up but I've put out a lot of feelers so now it's just wait and see...

(Curious how after all those years that the gun was finally sold shortly after the release of "Zulu Dawn".) (I know that's a stretch but...)

Best

Michael
18th June 2005Mike McCabe
The returning of the guns to the UK would, initially, have had a much more utilitarian reason - to have them properly inpected, refurbished, and returned to operational service. Whilst a level of field repair could have been attempted at Artillery Bde level by unit artificers, there would not have been complete confidence in the guns (after a period of neglect) until the Royal Arsenal technical staffs had checked them out properly. On being phased out of British/Colonial/Indian/Egyptian service, the guns would routinely be either scrapped or a number might be released as historical/instructional items or for display at HQs or artillery depots. There are, for example, guns from the Nile campaign outside the HQ of the current 4th Division in Aldershot (the old BEF HQ).
I vaguely recall reference being made to the finding and recovery of these guns in an article written by the late Maj Darryl Hall - around the time of the 1979 Zulu War centenary commemorations.

MC McC
18th June 2005Mike McCabe
The article does not (as I had mistakenly thought) settle the point immediately above, but readers might like to look at: http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol044dh.html

This also draws interesting conclusions on the very limited lethality of the 7Pdr RML ammunition natures, and also indicates that the Rocket Battery in Durnford's column was most probably improvised by aggregating rocket troughs from the first line holdings of gun batteries. We also know that at least one other such rocket battery was left with the local Volunteer units still conducting 'mopping up' operations after the 9th Frontier (or Kaffir) War.
MC McC
19th June 2005Michael Boyle
Mike,

For now I'm going with reports at the time that say the guns recovered were still servicable and the 'Graphic' account that they were returned to Woolwich to be 'immortalized'. After recieving a report from SA that one of them had been sold to the States and recieving another report in the States that it may be the one seen in San Francisco from the sixties on, I'm just going to run with this until I hit an impenetrable wall.

By the way a further correspondence has revealed that many (one gentleman already has eight) 7 pdr. RML Afghan produced barrels have made it back here (from our troops stationed there). Oddly enough customs allowed the barrels in but not the steel carriages, which they destroyed! I guess the thinking there being "we'll let you have the cannon but we're not going to make it easy for you to carry it around".

(Of course they may have a point, when was the last time you heard of a bank job pulled off with a hand-held 7 pdr. RML?)

Best

Michael
21st June 2005Michael Boyle
I hope to shorthly have the serial number on one of the guns and more information as to the condition of both at the time.Meanwhile I'm still trolling for more clues so if anyone has anything remotely applicable or any other ideas please let me know.

Thanks

Michael
22nd June 2005Michael Boyle
This discussion seems to have moved to the "Guns and Rockets" topic. I will post any further information there. (I quess 2001 is just to long ago for most people!)