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The Martini Henry Notebook
Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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The new book by Malcolm Cobb is out, the Martini Henry notebook is a superb book covering all aspects history and info on the rifle. Andy Webberley has the first issues available @ www.onlineguns.co.uk

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Neil
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Neil

Is this the best book on the MH for a novice ?

Also, do you know of any similar recent titles covering the Adams revolver ?

Thanks

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Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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definitely, Malcolm Cobb covers Isandlwana very well, As it covers the pre-cursors to the Martini It makes a complete book. It is out of print now, but I think Andy has just aqquired 10, worth dropping him a line.

Regards
Neil

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Neil

Thanks. Good to know.

A bit early after the new year (financially) for research materials, but it is a title which appears to cover the subject well.

I do have the following titles, more booklets than books -

Cartridge Carbines Of The British Army.
Alan M. Petrillo.

Martini-Henry .450 Rifles & Carbines.
Dennis Lewis.

.450 & .303 Martini Rifles and Carbines.
Ian Skennerton.

Also the following -

The Snider-Enfield Rifle.
Charles D. Purdon.

.577 Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket & Snider-Enfield.
Ian Skennerton.

This next title is in book form -

.577 Snider-Enfield Rifles & Carbines : British Service Longarms 1866 -c.1880.
Ian Skennerton.

May I ask for your opinions of these, as I find the details quite confusing, due to lack of knowledge on the firearms covered.

Thanks in advance.

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Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Dennis Lewis's book is very good, lots of images etc. It does cover all the variants. Certainly one for the shelf.
The Skennerton books are first class, the softback is good for identification of parts, but not overly historical and it concentrates on the .303 variants more.
The Skennerton Treatises are the must have, particularily the first issue (red or Blue) and the Third (green). If you want the full information regards the .450 calibre MH rifle its development, trials, and individual marks. For manufacturing dates, info on the manufacturers, production figures,bayonets, accessories, training aids and tools the green (third) issue is a must.
The second (Yellow), covers the evolution and development into the Enfield Martini in .402 (the later Mk1V), the .303" Martini, rapid loader and long range sight development and the change from black powder to cordite.
Petrillos book is good, but Skennerton covers the same in more detail

A recommendation if you can get it is Temples " The Boxer Cartridge in British service", the bible for the Martini anorak.

With the Skennerton books you will be able to glean far more than the "guessing books", for example the reports of the RSAF inspector are full of snippets which point to hard facts. For example the conversions of the Mark 1 rifle to the Mk2, this is often muted that the changes were done in the field by armourers, they were not. He reports that in March 1878 that "By April next (1879), 300,000 of the rifles in service will have been altered by Enfield to the new pattern." That means over a third of those made(175,000) were still unaltered and out there. It also reports on a Mk3 Martini cartridge, picked up from Isandlwana in March 1880 after 1 year on the ground in the open, fired first time and acheived 1300 fps!. So much for the boxer cartridge being suspect to weather!.

These are priceless bits of information.

Neil

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Neil

Thanks for the details.

I remember a topic covering the apparent effects of weather (rain in particular) on cartridges.

So, by what you say near the end of your post, this is not the case, and perhaps cartridges, like those stored in 'open' bandoliers, like the IMI, were actually not at any risk ?

Can I also ask this -

If MH, or revolver ammunition was submerged in water, say, when the men were crossing rivers, etc., could they still be fired ?

Or would this be a different matter, with the ammunition instead being afterwards useless ?

I guess I'm thinking on the scene in 'Zulu Dawn', when Bloomfield states that the drowned native's 5 rounds were ruined.

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Adrian Whiting


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Dorset, England
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Hello Neil,

Whilst I would tend to agree that British Service MHR MkIs were altered at RSAF I am less convinced that the RSAF Supts' reports are conclusive on the matter. I would certainly agree that this was not undertaken "in the field" if the meaning of that term were taken to equate with the impression of troops on active service marching on their objective. I would readily agree that the armourer's efforts would be on maintaining what already existed and certainly not on alterations of that type.

Ian Skennerton documents the fact that some MkI to MkII alterations were undertaken by Colonial administrations (leading to examples that were not then marked with the second "I"), so there can be no question that the alterations could only have been effected at RSAF, clearly they could be done in other armoury locations. My own view is that I have yet to see conclusive evidence that no British service MHRs were ever altered in this way at overseas depots. Armouries at depots were, in my view, perfectly capable of the work, even to the trigger unit if all they had were the original components from the MkI (which I expect is all they had and not ready altered units from Britain) since the armoury equipment covers all the tooling needed. Equally I have to admit I have seen no evidence to say any were altered overseas! At present I am keeping an open mind on the potential for this. I firmly believe it was possible, the question is simply did it ever happen.

Of course the other question is, does it matter?! Well I think that is only really relevant here in the sense that this subject first arose, to my recollection, in threads seeking views on the Mk of MHR used by regular British forces in the AZW.

I know you have photographic evidence of MkIs in service then and later, which is important material. It is my understanding, from material in the RRW musuem, that the 2/24th received their MHRs at Warley in 1873 (clearly MkIs) and whilst there is no recorded date of issue for 1/24th, Philip Gon has a reference to musketry instruction for that battalion with the MHR in 1874, so still MkI.

The RSAF Supt extracts you refer to include that the Supt reports that by March 1878 about 260,000 MkI to II alterations will have taken place. The manufacturing figures given indicate some 118,920 MkI 2nd pattern and 314,683 MkI 3rd patterns manufactured to that same date (bearing in mind the report appears mid manufacturing year as I know you are aware), being some 433,603 MHR all told.

It is my understanding that 2/24th arrived in SA in March 1878, so at the end of the period referred to by the RSAF Supt. Accepting that not quite all 260,000 alterations would have taken place by then, in actual fact it cannot have been that many fewer given that was the last month of the year concerned. In my mind then is the possibility that the 2/24th may have had their rifles altered at RSAF. I have no evidence either way though.

In my view 1/24th were serving with their MkIs still, but the possibility of alteration at an armoury in SA still interests me. I have to conclude it is very unlikely as there is no mention at all of it in any reference I have yet seen and given the time for the work I would have though it would have been recorded.

So for the moment I am keeping an open mind on it. I am sure the work could have been done overseas, the question is "was it?". I tend to doubt it, but as you rightly point out, there is quite a difference between the numbers altered at RSAF and those MkIs manufactured - might some have been altered elsewhere than RSAF? - petty but interesting (to me!).

Take care,

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Adrian
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The Martini Henry Notebook
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