New RD defender? |
Lee Stevenson
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Hi
Just to clarify then - 25B/295 Private David Jenkins was serving in 'G' Company when he wrote the letter home....and may well have been serving with that company all the time - but is it not also possible therefore that he had been serving with another company up to 22nd-23rd January 1879 and that once they were all wiped out at Isandlwana he was taken into one of the surviving companies? A "Private Jenkins" is also listed amongst several Rorke's Drift men of the 1st Battalion who arrived home aboard the S.S. Egypt in early October 1879. (from an original report in the Times) Of course we still can't explain just how he came to at Rorke's Drift. However this same report from the Times states that these men had been "...to the rear with prisoners, but who had returned in time to join the with B Company of the 2nd Battalion in the defence of Rorke's Drift..." Might there also be room for speculation that the 'prisoners' were in fact some of the men of the 1/24th being escorted back down the line of communication from No. 3 column, for detention either at Rorke's Drift or to Helpmakaar perhaps? At least one of the 1st battalion men who later fought at Rorke's Drift had received a fine for being drunk, (one of many in his short army career), on the 19th January 1879. One interesting thought on the discovery of Jenkins' Rorke's Drift bible - (which we know to be inscribed correctly to him)...so as he was not listed on the 'Chard' roll - How did the Ladies Testimonial Fund know that he had been at Rorke's Drift? Does this mean that there was/is another roll of defenders still out there.....! Lee |
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Julian whybra
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Martin, as I've told you already, but may be useful to the general public, Jenkins's letter is actually dated the 28th January.
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Martin Everett
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Julian,
There is also a reference to David Jenkins being at RD in letter written by 1289 CSgt Wm Edwards - killed Isandlwana. |
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_________________ Martin Everett Brecon, Powys |
diagralex
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I must admit that I am still somewhat confused if Private Davis Jenkins is to be accepted as an additional Rorke's drift defender. His Rorke's drift testimonial bible seems irrefutable proof that he was indeed a defender, but there are also other several other factors to consider.
His letter states that " I never saw such a sight " - concerning Isandlwana. This implies that he was present during the battle, yet no other Isandlwana survivor mentions him. It seems strange that a survivor from Isandlwana arriving at Rorke's drift and then defending it, is not mentioned by any of the other defenders. His "G" company muster roll places more confusion about his whereabouts. Lee Stevenson's mention of prisoner escort is a possibility, but where were the prisoners taken to ? There is no mention of men being held in detention at either Rorke's drift or Helpmekaar. Finally there is C.Sgt Edwards report of Jenkins being at Rorke's drift. If he was with "G" company then he should never have been sighted there. Is there any more evidence to make a conclusive decision ? Graham |
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Martin Everett
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Dear Graham,
We know from various rolls that there were two soldiers named 'Jenkins' from 1st Battalion at RD. This prompted a search through the Regimental Archives and we were able to find a reference to Pte David Jenkins 1/24th being at Rorke's Drift in the handwritten ledger containing the historic records of the 1st Battalion. Along with CSgt Edwards' reference - we have three pieces of evidence. There were a number of letters written home by survivors (but NOT present) - there seem to follow the 'party line' or what we might call 'the press release' today - might had the help of an officer in the composition. The author's key message was to tell his family that he was OK (and survived the disaster) - the family read it as he escaped. This why you have to take soldier's letters with a pinch of salt - often they were not in a position to know the bigger picture. You could, of course, question how Jenkins knew about 458 Bdr Lewis if he was not at RD. |
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Last edited by Martin Everett on Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total _________________ Martin Everett Brecon, Powys |
mike snook 2
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Wasn't Lewis a Bombardier?
Mike |
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Martin Everett
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Mike
I have corrected the reference - also Julian Whybra says the date of Jenkins' letter was 28th January 1879. As I do not have a copy I was quoting from RDBTWWT by Lee Stevenson. |
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_________________ Martin Everett Brecon, Powys |
Lee Stevenson
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To date no-one has been able to produce a definitive list of those men who were present at the defence of Rorke's Drift, so we are all left to speculate on many things. The 'discovery' of Pte Jenkins' Rorke's Drift bible clearly demonstrates just what additional information is still be waiting to be found.
So, and putting aside, if I may, whether Pte David Jenkins' letter is actually dated 26th or 28th January 1879, surely there is now evidence enough to add his name to the list of defenders though - or not ?? Martin, perhaps this was just temporary lapse on your part, so this just a reminder then, but "Rorke's Drift - by those who were there" was actually co-authored by myself and Alan Baynham Jones. |
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Martin Everett
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Dear Lee,
Sorry for omitting ABJ - he has been very helpful in this research on David Jenkins. It was Julian Whybra who was taking me to task over the actual date on the letter. I only have the published version not the original newspaper report, so I have go by yours and ABJ version. In the last few days, we had discovered the family story about Pte George Hudd - about him being greeted personally at Waterloo Station by Queen Victoria on his return to UK. We have concluded that he was wounded in the leg as reported in the newspaper report of his death in 1923. But he probably was sent home early with the other wounded soldiers and was in fact at Netley on 12 August 1879 when the Queen visited the hospital. Such is life. |
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_________________ Martin Everett Brecon, Powys |
Paul Bryant-Quinn
Guest
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In support of what Julian says, the Welsh-language version of 25B/295 Private David Jenkins' letter is also dated 28 January 1879.
Best wishes, Paul |
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Peter Ewart
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I've come to this thread a bit late as I've been offline for a week (laboriously trying to persuade a BT employee in India to arrange for the repair of a fault on a telegraph pole just across the meadow here - progress!!!) Anyway, I am fascinated by the discovery of this particular presentation Bible and the possibilities it raises.
Looking at it all objectively (as I'm sure Martin, Julian, Lee and Alan etc already have!) I think it is interesting to consider what each of the "sources" tell us independently and how reliable they can be considered. Taking the published letter alone (assuming the original no longer survives anywhere) it seems to me that the most likely assumption from that source would be that he was one of Chelmsford's party and therefore not present at the battle of Isandlwana. He describes himself as a survivor of the disaster, one of the very few (10) from "five companies", but that would be the case even if he was out with Chelmsford (although possibly needing to be attached to the "wrong" battalion that day, admittedly). He doesn't mention any detail of the battle (he needn't have done, I admit, and space was clearly short) but he does refer to never having seen "such a sight." This very strongly suggests to me the comments of someone who'd snatched a look at the scene on the night of the bivouac, or surreptitiously in the half-light of dawn before moving off - the bodies cut to bits, as it were. The men who wrote about these aspects were primarily among those who came through the site on the 22nd/23rd and ended up at R/Drift, or those at the post who heard the stories from the returning half-column in the long weeks stuck at RD following. His anxiety to tell his family that he was among the safe was no different to many other "survivors" of the day who were not actually at the battle. (Imagine their relief at mere chance having dictated their movements that day! They had "escaped" the disaster). His knowledge of the escape from the hospital of men whom he knew well was the same knowledge gained by all of the returning half-column who arrived at RD on 23rd and remained there for weeks, gathering details from their friends who had served during the defence. So, from the letter alone, I'd say he was almost certainly out with Chelmsford - or just possibly "not yet to be conclusively excluded" from the Isandlwana survivors. From Martin's regimental records, which apparently indicate this particular Jenkins was at the defence of R/Drift, it would depend (for me) on the record itself, its provenance and on who wrote the remark or entry, and when. Can you enlighten us a little on that point, please Martin? Assuming his name, initial and number don't appear on the Chard & Bourne rolls etc., what exactly is the regimental record which indicates he was there? Why exactly was the entry or remark made - and when? Is it a note in the margin, a later annotation, or what? Is it consistent with other examples? (Not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, just fishing for extra detail!) Finally, the bible and its inscription, about which there is apparently no doubt at all, among those who have handled some of the others, as regards its authenticity - which is fine. If we accept that this bible was awarded to Jenkins by those famous "ladies of Durban" then we must accept that Mrs Gittoes has a genuine artefact which has come down through the family from someone who was honoured along with up to about 150 others. However, does this source alone (despite its undoubted provenance) prove that Jenkins was a RD defender? As Lee has intimated, there must have been at least one rudimentary list drawn up and on which the ladies relied. Did they go by the original (Chard's?) list in the local press? (Haven't checked the Red Book for this just now). But whether they did or didn't, by the time the ladies had the idea and handed out the bibles, many of the defenders had dispersed from the original group and were far away - and others who weren't part of the defence were no doubt by now serving with or alongside the company when they arrived in Pinetown or Durban. The original defenders did not move around as a group but were separated and mixed up right from the 23rd onwards. (Remember the story of Dalton in the crowd as B Coy marched past). Is it not true, therefore, that there is ample scope for ambiguity, confusion, error and vagueness in working out who should have a bible, especially many months later? Is the Chard roll complete and perfect? We know that it isn't. The Bourne roll? No. Can the list relied upon by the ladies be considered 100% reliable? Of course not. I accept that it was probably easier for a real defender to miss out on receiving a bible than it was for someone who wasn't there to receive one, but I have little doubt that there were examples of both. So - can the possession of a genuinely inscribed bible be considered absolute proof of a man's involvement at the Defence of Rorke's Drift? Apparently not (even though, all things being equal, it is highly likely that any given recipient was there). When the other known evidence from independent sources already suggests (to me) that he was at either Isandlwana or out with Chelmsford, is the likelihood reduced somewhat? It is a great discovery and I do hope that he was there - and I also hope these musings are not seen merely as the pedantic doubts of an awful sourpuss! However, I do wonder if it is quite an open-and-shut case yet - and I daresay Martin, Julian, Lee, Alan and others have gone into all this in much more detail already. Peter |
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Martin Everett
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Peter,
This exercise with David Jenkins was useful and raised a number of points 1. Letters home from soldiers - some researchers seem to place more reliance on the content than they should. 'I survived' was the message they conveyed rather 'I was there and I survived' Often families read them as 'I was there and I survived' and this was carried through in family folkfore. I believe officers helped soldiers composed their letters home - I cannot believe that private soldiers would have had accurate data as to what happened, number of casualties, companies involved without this help. 2. CSgt Bourne knew his B Company men well - but would not have known those in another companies of 2/24th or 1st Battalion men. Bourne's roll was not compiled until many years later. About 1909? 3. Norman Holme did not have access (or rather he was not aware of the vitial information contained regimental records in the museum archives). He thought the two Jenkins at RD were 25B/841 and 1083. The regimental records confirms that it was 25B/841 and 25B/295. 4. We do know from letters written by 1-24/1289 CSgt Edwards that 25B/295 Jenkins was on prisoner escort duty at RD. There is no doubt that 295 was there. 5. What is truly amazing about the AZW is that we know so much - and here we are picking over the detail - it would be great if someone had a list of those of 2/24th (2/SWB) who landed at Cape Helles on 25 Apr 1915 (Anzac day) and later on D-Day 6 Jun 1944. I think everyone is very lucky that so much has survived from what in military terms is a short campaign. I am sure we shall continue to find more information at AZW to test what we already know. We shall be thankful for the efforts put in by Norman and Julian Whybra for others just to make use of. Research is time consuming when done properly. I am working on 2/24th at Tsingtao in 1914 - lots of wrong regimental numbers and spelling of surnames - luckly the lists are typed - all of which have to be resolved somehow. |
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_________________ Martin Everett Brecon, Powys |
scarletto7
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Quite correct, to put it sadly, my Regiment can list who served in India at Aliwal, can list who fought in France in WW1, yet doesn't have a list of those who served in the Boer War or WW2, i know from research, that one famous regiment didn't have a list of those who fell in Northern Ireland correctly named, from research I've been able to locate so far 24 men who are not on the official army list of those who fell in Northern Ireland, all from the early years, very sad indeed.
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Peter Ewart
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Martin
Yes, that's certainly a good point and we're very lucky that items keep surfacing from 1879. Given how tiny the AZW was compared with the SWB's involvement in both world wars, it would be interesting to know roughly what percentage of enquiries coming in to your museum relates to 1879. (Don't worry - not suggesting you start counting, but I'm sure you've noticed a huge proportional imbalance over the years!) I wonder if this is repeated in reverse for the curator of the museum covering the successor regiments of the Lancs Fusiliers simply because of their famous "6 VCs before breakfast" at "W" beach on 25 April 1915? I suppose they would be the equivalent, attention wise, of the seven VCs the 24th collected before breakfast on 23 Jan 1879. Peter |
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New RD defender? |
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