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Damian O'Connor


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Essex, UK
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Sorry...continuing the last post...Salisbury again protested but Cranbrook bluffed him out of it. Lytton's instructions in September were not to use force - but he claimed his troops were on a diplomatic mission and so there was no question of force. A fine point indeed. Lytton did get Cabinet permission to issue the ultimatum but reluctantly and, in effect, after the policy had already been set it train.
Damian
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Damian O'Connor


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Essex, UK
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Hi Paul,
I think that there was a genuine feeling in military/naval/colonial circles that imperial defence had fallen below minimum safe levels during the 1870s and they therefore took Disraeli's more positive attitude to empire as 'green light' to remedy this by consolidation, confederation and then eventually imperial federation. Only a week after taking office, Carnarvon, in some ways at the top of this 'defence establishment, ordered a defence review of all the colonies. The problem was that the officials were prepared to go further than the politicians - and indeed distrusted the new post-1867 democracy's competence to conduct defence policy. They had no answer to the problem that to defend the empire it was necessary to expand it, and thus to increase the problems of overstretch. Hope this makes sense.
Damian
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Paul Bryant-Quinn
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So in the light of what you've argued there, Damian, would it be fair to say that Carnarvon considered that the very delicate but crucial task (in his view) of effecting Confederation in Southern Africa was the key policy whose implementation he chose to entrust to no less a statesman of Empire than Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere?

Wink
Chelmsford Bio ; British - South African Confederation
Chris


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 180
Location: S.A.
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Paul Bryant-Quinn wrote:
So in the light of what you've argued there, Damian, would it be fair to say that Carnarvon considered that the very delicate but crucial task (in his view) of effecting Confederation in Southern Africa was the key policy whose implementation he chose to entrust to no less a statesman of Empire than Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere?
Wink

Gentleman,
Please forgive me , and thank you for your indulgence. I am finding it increasingly difficult to keep my hands in my pockets and fingers away from the keyboard. Reading your words has those bubble cartoon lightbulbs flashing away over my head.

Carnarvon and South African Confederation

http://www.seeff.com/northern-cape/Carnarvon.html

Carnarvon is situated in the middle of the Karoo in the Northern Cape Province of South Africa in the Upper Karoo or Bo Karoo region and is roughly halfway between Calvinia and De Aar on the R63. Being centrally situated, Carnarvon serves as a convenient gateway and stopover before a traveller reaches the famous flowers of the Namakwaland region also known as the painted dessert of South Africa, the West Coast region of South Africa and the Verneukpan, famous for it's land speed record attempts.

--------------------------

Perhaps there is a little book in there -- "South African British place names and their historical derivation"

DAMIAN .............


Chris
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Damian O'Connor


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Essex, UK
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Dear Paul,
Confederation was the medium term aim; defence of the Cape in the current crisis was the primary aim, I think.
Damian
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Chris

I suppose this ought to be a light-hearted comment but a couple of your recent postings have rather surprised - if not startled - me. Are you seriously suggesting that you were (or, shall we say, the average South African today of European extract would be) unaware of the origin of the place-names of Frere, Colenso and Carnarvon?

Would the same situation apply, say, for Ladysmith, Harrismith, Greytown, Durban, Pinetown, Melmoth, Newcastle, Pietermaritzburg, etc. etc? Presumably (or hopefully!) not, although in view of the penchant for changes in place-names mooted by the present local government, perhaps it's almost too late now. Wink

Getting slightly away now from the original thread's title, unless we drop in here the name of a certain mountain near St John's in former Pondoland or British Kaffraria, nowadays part of the Eastern Cape!

Peter
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Carnarvon -- SA place names
Chris


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 180
Location: S.A.
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Peter Ewart wrote:
Chris
I suppose this ought to be a light-hearted comment but a couple of your recent postings have rather surprised - if not startled - me. Are you seriously suggesting that you were (or, shall we say, the average South African today of European extract would be) unaware of the origin of the place-names of Frere, Colenso and Carnarvon?

Peter ,
I was aware of course of the very basic general background -- who these people were. It is one thing to know roughtly who Frere was -- but the way Damian ( and others ) are describing him and the background is a very different matter.
People within a town may know something of it. But I doubt the average South African is much bothered nowadays. If you went up to the average young white SA say in Durban and asked them where , who or what Carnarvon was , I am strongly inclined to think that you will get a very vague answer ( unless they have just studied this in history class -- even that is a bit of a long shot as history class these days is all about "The Struggle" -- Franz Fannon , Kwama nKruma , Lusaka , Dar Es Salaam and Luanda). I do not have relevant data ( surveys stats etc ) to back my supposition up. Next time I am in Durban I will have to have a try and ask some people. There is a nice book done here by Adrian Koopman about Zulu place names -- asking young whites about that one might even be more of an exercise in frustration. I do also recollect some other place name books ( memory fails me ) However as far as I know there is nothing specifically about Brirish place names in SA on the market. A book with the sort of background knowledge that people like Damian command.
Peter Ewart wrote:

Would the same situation apply, say, for Ladysmith, Harrismith, Greytown, Durban, Pinetown, Melmoth, Newcastle, Pietermaritzburg, etc. etc? Presumably (or hopefully!) not, although in view of the penchant for changes in place-names mooted by the present local government, perhaps it's almost too late now. Wink

Well I know the background to those -- again not sure if the present crop of youngsters do though. ( All the more reason for a book -- I am sure that between BA , SA Tourism and UKAID you could find the expense budget )
KZN has been spared much of the name changing mania. perhaps because the powers that be here used many colloquial names from the beginning.
However do YOU know the local Zulu names for all these places.?

eThekwini , uMgungundlovu , Nobamba , Nambiti , Mchezi , Mpiti etc etc.

Peter Ewart wrote:

Getting slightly away now from the original thread's title, unless we drop in here the name of a certain mountain near St John's in former Pondoland or British Kaffraria, nowadays part of the Eastern Cape!
Peter

Yes indeed......
Mount Thesiger from the "War of the Axe" perhaps.? The airstrip at Port St Johns is situated on top of a hill. I wonder if it is the same one. I will have to look on my Jeppersen.

Chris
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Damian

Thank you for explaining the fun and games around the Afghan ultimatum. Things are never as straightforward as they seem!

As ever

Mike
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Chris

Many thanks. Carnarvon is probably a harder one that Frere and Colenso I should think, particularly with the "rehabilitation" of Colenso being in the news a fair bit in KZN in recent years. I suppose the litmus test should be to ask a young chap in Durban today if he knows the origin of that name or of Pinetown. (Talking of Frere, I must admit I nearly included Estcourt and Chievely in my list but was pretty vague myself about the origins of one and ignorant on the other!)

And of the origins of the six Zulu placenames, I can offer a sound answer to only one of the six (no prizes for which!) and only a guess on another if elasticity was allowed on the spelling!

Indeed, Mt Thesiger. I don't know when it received its name. (Presumably 1879+ or just possibly 1878?) All my reading on that area is pre-1879.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I've often read that education in former Natal concentrated almost entirely on British history (especially before Union in 1910).

Peter
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Chris


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 180
Location: S.A.
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Peter Ewart wrote:

Indeed, Mt Thesiger.

Moved topic to Chit-Chat.
Peter Ewart wrote:

Thanks again for your thoughts. I've often read that education in former Natal concentrated almost entirely on British history (especially before Union in 1910).
Peter

NO Voortrekkers etc. etc National Christian Education. I doubt any student had any idea of the National Convention or who the last Prime Minister of Natal was.! ( or where his official residence was or what his farm was called.)

Chris
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Chelmsford bio
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