rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:38 pm

Barbara then together we will toast the men of the 24th.

And those defenders of the Alamo.

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:33 pm

,
Prepared to be staggered Mr John Young ! , add these to the list of those holding the VC / DCM.

1. Sgt Thomas Motteral 20 Sqn RFC
2. Sgt Edward John Mott 1st Btn The Border regt
3. Capt Charles Frederick Booth British South African Police
4. 2nd Lt Alfred Oliver Pollard 1st Btn Honorable Artillery Coy
5 . Sgt Arnold Loosemoore 8th Btn Duke of Wellington`s regt

My , " local " VC holder in Anglesey John ( William Williams) had his VC by ballot and this was in 1917 .

I know there are more VC / DCM holders, when you find one , there will be others , " Sapper " .

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:43 pm

,
Dear Barbara , Always good to read your input , when i go to places like Detling in Kent, i am amazed at the numbers of re-enactors that attend , especially those who support the American Civil War , amazing numbers in period uniform Barbara . Lets not forget Bunkerhill ! , i would argue that those and the red-coats ( plus others of the Victorian era ) are the ones most supported by , " Joe Public " . I don`t know if you have been to the UK to see re-enactors in " anger " , i hope you do , there is a cracking venue called Crownhill in Plymouth which i have been to before and will again . I have never been to South Africa , nor indeed America as a re-enactor let alone as a visitor , one of my contacts is a lady who is related to Pte Webb of the 2/ 21st who were at Ulundi as you know , they are both related to Matthew Webb who was the famous Channel swimmer and went over Niagra Falls in a barrel , i ask myself why ? , no wonder i love research and the many fine fellows and lassies i have met along the way .

" STAND TO " , ERE THEY COME AGAIN ! " , " Sapper " Cool

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:34 pm

Interesting idea. This from Smith -Dorrien,
Such is briefly my story of the 22nd January 1879, and I have endeavoured to avoid personal incidents as far as possible, though I should like my boys to know that on the evidence of eye-witnesses I was recommended for the V.C. for two separate acts on that day. These recommendations drew laudatory letters from the War Office, with a regret that as the proper channels for correspondence had not been observed, the Statutes of the Victoria Cross did not admit of my receiving that distinction, and having no friends at Court the matter dropped. In view of my latest experiences I am sure that decision was right, for any trivial act of good Samaritanism I may have performed that day would not have earned a M.C. much less a V.C., amidst the deeds of real heroism performed during the Great War 1914-18.

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:46 pm

Sapper,

Thank you for your note; no, I've not seen a re-enactment in the U. K. but will perhaps do so one day. I find it interesting that there are so many U. K. folks who are interested in the ACW, as well as our Indian Wars. Many have studied the subjects very thoroughly, as can be seen here, and their insights are often profound.

Best regards,

Barbara

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:53 pm

,
Dear Peter , Interesting point that you mention about Smith - Dorien , i think the individual concerned who merits such a distinction would rather not have their lives disrupted by an award of valour such as the VC , Fred Hitch was a quiet unassuming man by all accounts , rarely if at all mentioning the actions of the day we are so hotly in debate over . I welcome diverse and legitimate conversation as to the merits and other of the Anglo Zulu War which grips us to this day , if the issue of gallantry awards was taken out of the framework , how would you recognise an act of bravery i wonder ? . It was no less a person than Queen Victoria and her Consort that came up with the idea of a decoration to honour the ordinary soldier . As i mentioned in another link from a Medal News Yearbook ( 2002 ) these early forms of gratitude to service rendered went back a long way in time . As we know , Lord Ashcroft has some 150 examples of the highest award of valour this country has to offer . I think it`s OK to wear replica medals as a re-enactor but draw the line at wearing ACTUAL medals given to an individual , replicas have no name engraved on the rim as you know and are always a point of debate wherever one turns out , uniforms are scrutinised to a degree you would not believe ! . There is a gent who visits Crownhill on a regular basis whose passion is buttons and if you support the wrong type of button on a tunic , he will know ! . The correct dated weaponry is looked over for accuracy , even the correct piping on trousers , quite rightly too Peter . I would hate for us to have all the same point of view and will never belittle any individual( s ) on their beliefs on this forum . As i see it the DCM is just below the VC in importance and i have seen now quite a few individuals have both decorations with but THREE getting a bar to a VC , what a rare feat that is and will remain so . I think there is a valid case for the issue of medals for acts of gallantry recognising an act of bravery AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME . What a man does on Monday will not be repeated the next day . Ordinary men doing extraordinary acts when pushed , in all aspects of this fascinating part of history all i ask for is lively debate with a touch of accuracy and realism , " Sapper " Smile

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:14 am

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Dear Barbara , Nice to hear from you . If you DO get to the UK i urge you to attend the Military fare at Detling in KENT ( Nr Maidstone ) , all and varied aspects of miltary re-enactments are on show there , i was most impressed with the numbers supporting the American Civil War ( both Confederate & Union ) , the Victorian red-coats always attracting people . I was impressed as a former Plant Mechanic on the Royal Tiger tank on view one year, the crew in the Black of the SS , all part of the rich tapestry of history i feel . You have my views on decorations etc but i tend to agree with Michael Boyle on the American custom of unit citations which in my opinion would have , " covered " the actions at Rorke's drift quite admirably , others may differ in opinion Barbara . I can remember one Detling in particular where we were just inside the main-gate , amongst the cattle-sheds , members of the group i was in went about normal activities such as making breakfast , smoking , getting washed and such activities normal in camp life , the public came in and a number had believed this was part of the activities and were surprised when told , " No , we are just getting ready for the day " . It would be fantastic Barbara if a number of re-enactors were able to visit the USA as Victorian soldiers in a re-enactment capacity .

Do you think it was a touch ironic that Queen Victoria died just one day before the anniversary of Rorke's Drift ? ( Jan 21st 1901 ) and to finish this item were you aware that Sgt Frederick Augustus Millne had a daughter called Ada Rorke Millne ? , just one guess on which day she was born in 1902 ? . All the best to you , " Sapper " Cool

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:34 am

Sapper,

Now I think I get your broader point that U. K. re-enactors are doing the ACW in the U. K.. Who'd have thought it? Actually I haven't seen U. S. re-enactors doing Victorian battles, nor have I heard of interest in such, but perhaps some additional knowledge is needed on these shores of the Victorian Era in England to begin with (excepting Michael Boyle, of course.)

Peter H,

Yes, surely we will toast them together. The men of RD and the defenders of the Alamo. (P. S...my first required piano piece didn't come from either engagement; rather, it was the "Garryowen." It is burned into my brain--and fingers!)

Best,

Barbara

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:59 am

Sapper

I think you'll find Her Majesty died on the actual anniversary, not the day before.

You are no doubt right about VC or DCM holders committing an act of gallantry at one moment but perhaps being less than perfect soldiers on other occasions. The annals of the VC alone are littered with examples - including those at R/Drift.

My grandfather appears to have been recommended for the VC in South Africa but eventually received the DCM. Yet, at the outset of his military career, he'd hardly begun before he was on trial and in confinement, serving 56 days for theft!

Peter

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:31 am

,
Dear Peter ( Ewart ) , i stand corrected , yes indeed Queen Victoria did die on the anniversary of Rorke's Drift on the 22nd Jan 1901 at Osborne House on the Isle of Wight aged 81 i believe ? . Quite ironic that fate decided on that day of all days Peter , thank you for correcting me on this . The fact that your grandfather was close to receiving the VC , getting the DCM is a fantastic achievement , you must be very proud of him . Thank you once again for pointing out my error , " Sapper " Embarassed

Barbara : Yes indeed the American Civil War is well supported in the UK , there is a fantastic place called , " Sutters " where all sorts of ACW items can be purchased , had i not been enthralled with the Anglo Zulu War then most likely i would have been a, " Johnny Reb " . There are many in the USA that have interests in the Zulu war and perhaps one day elements of the re-enactments scene would come over to America as red-coats , worth thinking about don`t you think ? . " Sapper " Smile

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:36 pm

Now he deserved the VC

HARMAN, John Pennington. (reg No. 532). Wink

Lance-Corporal. Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment.
London Gazetted on 22nd June 1944.
Born on 20th July, 1914 at Beckenham, Kent.
Died on 9th April 1944 at Kohima, Assam, India. (killed in action) .
Memorial on grave at Kohima War Cemetery, India and on Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel.
Digest of Citation reads:
On 8th/9th April, 1944 at Kohima, India, Lance-Corporal Harman was commanding his section of a forward platoon where the enemy had established a machine-gun post within 50 yards of his company and were becoming a menace. As it was not possible to bring fire on to the enemy post the Lance-Corporal went forward by himself and threw a grenade into the position, annihilating it. Early next morning, having ordered covering fire from his Bren gun he went alone, with fixed bayonet and charged a party of Japanese who were digging in, shooting four and bayoneting one. On returning to his position he was fatally wounded.

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:21 pm

This is the first time I've read or known about this article, which made interesting reading. It was at least refreshing to see both the film and the battle discussed from a novel (to me) angle, and it fleshed out Witt's biography admirably. As an account of the film, however, it leaves something to be desired.

No-one has pointed it out, but the article was published in 1996. It's true that very little of substance had been written about "Zulu" before then, certainly from a historical angle, but it's still surprising that Frederick Hale makes no reference at all to anything written on the film itself (there was some material available on its political implications: see the bibliography and source notes in my book). Explanation for this may be found in note 4, when Hale reveals his authority for declaring that "No serious debate about the historicity of 'Zulu' is known to have taken place": interviews with two South African history professors in 1995, i.e., second-hand opinion. As Hale makes a good deal of fuss about Prebble and Endfield's failure to do research in readily available archival sources, it's a bit rich that Hale seems not to have bothered to visit the British Film Institute Library in London, which holds an extensive microfiche file of reviews and other contemporary published commentary on the film, plus plenty of other reference material (including copies of the script). I would have thought any scholar writing about a British film would have made the BFI a priority port of call.

As for Hale's expectation that the screenwriters should have consulted the archival records of the Church of Sweden (containing documents presumably written in Swedish) - why on earth should they? Witt was, like the other characters, a fictionalised construction who served a specific, limited dramatic purpose (as do his "decontextualised" biblical quotations). Peter Ewart's post of 22 July on this thread draws more intelligent and apt inferences about the film's use of Witt than Hale ever manages. And Hale's reference to the "unexplained" reason for the filmmakers' decision to make Witt's two-year-old daughter a sexy adult is almost touchingly na�ve (he gets the point a few pages later when he remembers that commercial films are made to appeal to broad popular audiences).

Hale gives away his own interest in the subject when he refers, in note 6, to "easily the most detailed historical account" of Witt - his own PhD thesis, completed in 1991. There is a long tradition of academics berating others for failing to do the work that they themselves have done, but why should he expect filmmakers to engage in detailed, original historical research at a time when scholarship on Rorke's Drift was in its infancy? As discussed in my book, Prebble researched the battle as a journalist in 1957-8 for a short article which appeared in a general, not specialist, magazine. Most of his subsequent work on the subject (as a screenwriter) was dramatisation, not further research.

Not being a military, colonial or clerical historian myself, I have one query about Hale's assertion that the correct name for the mission station (and therefore also the battle) was Oscarsberg, not Rorke's Drift: why would Witt give his dwelling the name of a mountain ("berg" meaning mountain or hill)? It seems more likely that he preferred to refer to his mission by its location near the self-named hill (aka Shiyane) on the opposite side of the station to the river crossing whose name others preferred to use, presumably because the spot had been so named much earlier.

As for Hale's discussion of the film, it is lamentably superficial and selective. Has anyone else noticed the "desirous glances" Chard and Bromhead supposedly direct at Margareta? Is it necessary to belabour Jack Hawkins' sensible decision not to attempt a Swedish accent, or would Hale have preferred him to sound like the muppet chef? And to reduce the film's message to "British valour overcomes even the longest odds, not least when the defence of Western civilisation is the issue" reveals a total insensitivity to the nuances and complexities of the film, which is very far from the sort of jingoistic flagwaver implied by such a crude description.

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:16 pm

To compare the screenplay of a film with a doctorial thesis (even one's own) is a stretch to say the least. The two are so far removed from each other that even the apples and oranges comparison does not quite measure up.

Am I wrong on this point but is the correct name for the location of our favorite battle the mission station at Rorke's Drift? I have never seen the location called anything but Rorke's Drift on maps - even period ones. Perhaps is some long forgotten archive in Sweden it may be listed as the Oskarberg Misson Station but at this point trying to rename this battle would make as much sense as trying to get the Battle of Bunker Hill renamed the Battle of Breed's Hill.

And here is something for Barbara. While there is very little in the way of Victorian British re-enactment going on in the U.S. (though quite often at some of the larger ACW reenactments you will see a scarlet tunic wearing "observer" or two watching the goings on) there is a bit every now and then:

Some 17th Lancers at Fort MacArhtur in San Pedro (part of Los Angeles) California. The fort is named for General Arthur MacArthur a Medal of Honor recipient from the ACW and father to the more famous Douglas. That is the Pacific Ocean in the background - not exactly the usual setting conjured up when one thinks of the 17th but rather picturesque.

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:38 am

Edward,

Thanks for posting the pic. Lovely background and a fine day!

Barbara

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:24 pm

Edward,

By the way how did you fare in the shake yesterday? 5.4 from what I understand, and it can be somewhat frightening.

Barbara