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George Alfred Morris
William Seymour


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 79
Location: Kent, UK
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I have recently been going through the family archive and have come across the following entry: George Alfred Morris b 26/11/1871 and is listed as a "Professional Soldier". Married in about 1903. I wonder if he has entered anyone else's radar in this forum?
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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The British Army is big!

born 1871 then enlisted 1889 (age 18 years). Might have served minimum of 12 years or so. Documents possibly in box WO97/5545 if he was discharged before 1913 in the National Archives at Kew (remember TNA charge �60 per hour for searching). Best do it yourself.

Might have additional served later in WW1 - try Medal Index Cards on-line
www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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William Seymour


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 79
Location: Kent, UK
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Thank you Martin. Would you be able to tell me which Regiment he enlisted in?
JK
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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The British Army is a bit big, as I said - there were about 113,000 men in Army in UK and around the Empire at that time.


If he married whilst still serving - the place of marriage may be a clue to the regiment. Also the marriage certificate itself may state Pte Blankshire Regt. Get a copy.

I have told you where to look - if you go to the National Archives website - 'getting started' - list of independent researchers - select one if you are not able to undertake the research yourself. Information does not come without effort I am afraid.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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William Seymour


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 79
Location: Kent, UK
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Martin

Once again, on this web site, those that "don't know" get pulverised for seeking an honest answer to an honest question. I had visited the web site that you had recommended and found a suitable match but the enlistment dates do not match. May I suggest that if you have a database that we could all use, please make it available to all on this wewbsite. If I came to your Museum and had asked you the same question I am quite sure that you would not have told me go away and go to Kew.
Regards
JK
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Woops! Do I detect a misunderstanding leading to some crossed wires here? May I jump in quickly with a possible explanation? (If wrong, just ignore me).

1. WS quotes brief details & wonders if they are recognised by anyone who has come across the chap.

2. Martin, coming on to help with advice, begins by emphasising the nature and potential extent of the search, given the size of the army and the paucity of info known so far. Continuing with "born 1871 then enlisted 1889 aged 18" he actually meant to convey, in less abbreviated form: "If born 1871, then perhaps enlisted around, say, 1889, when he'd have been about 18." Then, given his likely term of engagement, offers clues on the likely steps to be taken at Kew for surviving soldiers' service papers, warning also of TNA's charges for doing the research themselves.

3. However, WS, delighted at Martin's apparent exact details (enlistment year appearing to be known by him instead, actually, of being merely estimated) assumes Martin knows more from his archives at Brecon than he has revealed in his post, and asks about a regiment, assuming, naturally, that now the very 24th themselves may be involved.

4. Martin, not realising that his ambiguously worded (sorry Martin!) advice has been misunderstood, is surprised that John would ask such a question, given that he has already emphasised the size of the army and the usual method of research. Trying to be helpful and offering further useful tips, he reminds WS that these things are only found after diligent research - which, as it happens, WS is already aware of, as to my certain knowledge he is a keen family historian with some experience of military research among WO sources at Kew and was originally asking whether anyone else had already come across this soldier?

5. It gets better! (Or worse). WS, now convinced that Martin knows not only the year of enlistment but much more, is miffed at what appears to be a rather abrupt reply aimed at concealing the "fact" that Martin knows more. So he lets rip!

6. Martin, still gloriously oblivious to how his answers have actually been interpreted, will be quite taken aback next time he logs on...

What fun! (Which is why I'm jumping in quickly!) As I have not the slightest doubt that Martin's response was never intended to appear so blunt, and that WS - whom I know very well indeed, and who is a jolly good egg (alumni of James Stuart's and Bertram Mitford's old school, so he must be!) - is no doubt astonished that his query has met with such a rejoinder, I am just as certain that both - when they see this - will now chuckle at the misunderstanding & proffer their respective right hands in friendship!

Oh, the trials and tribulations of discussion forums! Very Happy I will now click "submit" and hope I've intervened before Martin or anyone else has steamed in hard! Wink Wink Wink

Peter
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Peter,

I can see the confusion..........but I did explain to WS where to actually look at TNA. Where the problems lies I suspect that many people expect the web to provide the instant answer - but as you know often old fashioned leg work is the only option. Discharges after 1872, surviving docs at Kew are filed alphabetically - so name of regiment is not an essential element for the search.

However I can tell you that WO97 records (soldier's service papers) have started to be scanned (or rather the contract has been signed) so eventually they will be available online for a fee.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Alan
Site Admin

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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Peter,
would you like a job?

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William Seymour


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 79
Location: Kent, UK
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Peter

Thank you for your explanation - you are of course quite right in your interpretation.

Martin

I will come down and see your Museum one day and I look forward to meeting you.

As an end note, another member of this forum has offered to search the records in Kew (at a more reasonable rate) and I look forward to finding out the results of his endeavours.

Regards
JK
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ANDY LEE


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 167
Location: Bournville,West Midlands, UK
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Alan

Peter's reply outstanding - If Gordon Brown is out there 'First class spin doctor for you mate' albeit do not think even Peter could save you!

Andy Smile Smile

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Andy Lee
Four for Valour
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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I should explain - soldiers documents - WO97 series at Kew. None of these are currently on-line.

The early years (i.e. Discharges 1760 to 1854) are on microfilm - but you have know the regiment of the soldiers you are looking for.

The same is true for the period 1855-1872 - but these are still available in paper form

However for the periods following 1873 to 1913 they are filled strictly alphabetically regardless of regiment (although for the period 1873-1882 Cavalry, Corps, Infantry are filled separately).

Some years ago, I went to Kew and photocopied the Reader Catalogue Index so that I could advise a searcher which box to look in to simplify the search time - because most people can be naturally overwhelmed on their first visit to Kew - so giving the WO97 box number re-assures them. No mystery.

Despite several requests to TNA, there is no facility on their catalogue search for entering name and receiving the reference number of the WO97 box in return.


Last edited by Martin Everett on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Phew! Glad that's sorted. I'll let you know, Alan (glad to have helped!) Wink

John, briefly what civilian details do you know & what are your sources?

He wasn't a Mancunian by any chance, was he?

Peter
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Alan
Site Admin

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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Andy,
Peter is good but I don't think even he can work miracles of that magnitude.

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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Here is a typical request I receive - amongst the many each day - remembering most are about WW1 - and what makes responses more difficult the fact we do not hold service records at the museum:

I am researching my family history and hope you can help me. My great grandfather was William Kelly, born in Marylebone in 1854, and he served in the Zulu War in 1879, receiving the South Africa with clasps 1879 medal. Unfortunately, I don t know which regiment he was with, and I am hoping there is a way you might be able to trace him in your records, if he was there. Before 1881, he served 10 years 95 days in the army somewhere, and the family story is that he was a drummer. He married in Portsea Island, Southampton, in1881, his occupation at the time stated as clerk so he must have been a civilian by then. Maybe if you have no record of him, you could suggest other regiments involved in the Zulu war that might be able to help. I do hope you can turn something up, as I have hit something of a brick wall with great grandad!

Any ideas?

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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According to Forsyth:
3/60th 1417 W Kelly and 90th 1054 W Kelly both entitled to the 1879 clasp.

Very curious that the relative seems to have a lot of additional information without knowing the regiment.

Peter
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George Alfred Morris
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