rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:37 am

Gentlemen,

I fear the many stimulating discussion we have all enjoyed in seeking the truth about the ins an outs of Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana, have grown a little threadbare. Perhaps it would be a good idea to let them rest for a while and turn our deliberations elsewhere.

Mention of the abaQulusi and their association with the battles of Hlobane and Kambula, introduces aspects of the AZW equally dramatic as Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana. It also draws attention to other British regiments, the 13th and 80th - not to mention the colonials, the Frontier Light Horse, Border Horse and others deserving of similar recognition accorded to the 24th and the Natal Carbineers.

Also lift a few stones and one will likewise find blame games and cover ups.

Kicking off with Hlobane, in which two imperial officers, approximately 130 colonials and 500 mercenaries were killed, - acts of heroism were acknowledged and used to distract authority and the public from incompetence and disasters.

Buller, the architect of the attack, was the first to be recommended for the Victoria Cross, he having saved at least one man in the flight down Devils Pass and off the mountain - but then so had many others. Wood, who made the recommendation recorded telling Buller:
' "I said ... I think you may be interested in something I have written". and I handed him the letter-book. He was very tired, and observed somewhat ungraciously, "Some nonsense I suppose!"
to which I replied, "Yes, I think I have been rather eulogistic". When he handed me back the book his face was a study".' Capt. Walter Stafford, one of the few survivors of Isandlwana, put the news of Buller's award rather differently: "Buller gained the V.C. an award not popular amongst the rank and file who were of the opinion that there were more deserving cases amongst the lower ranks.

Major Knox Leet, who saved a fellow officer at extreme risk to his own life, certainly thought he deserved the award and set about canvassing support in high places:
"They all say I ought to get the V.C. for saving young Smith's life at the risk of my own, but Colonel Wood, being a V.C. man himself, it is said, I do not know with what foundation, does not care to increase the number more than he can help ... You have connections with the press and in that way (of course without compromising me in any way) you might bring public opinion to bear." Two months later Knox Leet's award was gazetted.

The third V.C. associated with Hlobane is that awarded to Lt. Edward Browne of the 1/24th whose citation read: "29th March [the day after Hlobane] ... during the retreat from Hlobane he rode back twice to assist men whose horses had fallen, only yards from the pursuing Zulus."

It now appears that he was specifically involved in helping Lt. Col. Cecil Russell to mount his fractious horse at Kambula when only yards from the oncoming Zulus. But the mystery deepens: on the 15th Jan, 1880, Maj. General Sir Henry Gifford, at a special parade in Pietermaritzburg which, on Queen Victoria's orders was to be made "In as public a manner as possible" decorated Sgt. Major Ledra of Zikalli Troop, Natal Native Horse, with the Distinguished Conduct Medal. Part of the citation read "at Kambula where he and his men were engaged dismounted under the command of Lt. Col. Russell, a party of mounted Zulus, superior in number, came down upon them the order was given to remount; the men did so but Col Russell's horse would not allow him to mount. Troop Sgt. Major Ledra went to his assistance, calling at the same time upon his own men who were retiring, to attack the enemy and they did so, enabling Col. Russell to remount and they repulsed the enemy." No mention whatsoever of Browne.

During the attack on Hlobane Wood and his staff were ambushed. Captain Ronald Campbell, followed by Lt. Lysons and Pte. Fowler, charged the snipers' cave. Campbell was shot dead while Lysons and Fowler, charged the snipers' cave. Campbell was shot dead while Lysons and Fowler, firing into the cave, dispersed the enemy. Eighteen months later Wood wrote to the Commander in Chief, H.R.H. The Duke of Cambridge, reporting that Lady Lysons and her husband, General Sir Daniel Lysons, the Quartermaster General, was pestering him to recommend their son for the V.C. Wood duly recommended Lysons and, as there had been criticism that only officers were receiving the award, recommended Pte. Fowler also. The following year both men received the decoration.

After Isandlwana Lord Chelmsford was severely taken to task by the Commander- in- Chief for failing to find the Zulu army when he had so many mounted men at his disposal. Not only did Buller and Wood similarly fail to find the Zulu army, which would have averted the blunder of Hlobane, when Wood was told by Dennison of the Border Horse that he had actually seen the Zulu army's camp fires, he was ridiculed by Wood.

So that's just a few titbits of contention that are contained in other chapters of the AZW. I hope this kick starts a discussion.

By the way, what used to be called the Vryheid Municipal District is now the Qusini Municipal District.

Ron.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:48 pm

Whereas the Warrant for the DCM (which predated the VC) was fairly simple to interpret and apply, that for the VC combined some features that were enabling but others that were impossible constraints; like no scope to consider posthumous awards. In a sense Sgt Maj Ledra benefited from the higher likelihood of a DCM award, and its clear appropriateness, whilst many convoluted considerations and side issues plagued submissions for the VC.

For the VC the option to conduct a ballot as the means of selecting prospective recipients for recommendation was not in itself decisive or conclusive. Examples of using a ballot usually ended up with the nominee receiving the award if deemed in all other respects deserving but this is still a fairly hard area to penetrate from a researching viewpoint. Perceptions of grievance if a ballot did not occur might well flavour attitudes in more openinly textured volunteer units who were less aware or interested in more conventional military attitudes. It also appears to be the case that the wide range of ZW VCs and the circumstances and timing of each award really did push the envelope of interpreting the VC Warrant. Morever what we now consuider that we know of the circumstances is mnot necessarily matched with how they were view by contemporarey assessors. There are also reasonable suspicions that the decision to award was systematically being prised away from the Sovereign's personal influence; perhaps as commentary on the seemingly very variable quality and possible motives of the direct advisers.

G

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:02 pm

Ron it�s a pleasure to see you back.

Regards

Harman P

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:17 pm

The column was divided on opposite sides of the river due to high water.

Were all the wagons on one side if not would they have had enough wagons to establish a good defensive laager�s on both sides of the river.

Moriarty wasn�t over concerned had a bit of a laid back attitude although Isandhlwana had taken place roughly 3months earlier

I was wondering if Moriarty had engaged Zulus before the Ntombe incident or was this first and last action.

Would it not have been more sensible to get all the troops to one side of the river therefore increasing the fire power in the event of an attack?

And I would lay odds that the ammunition supply was on the side of the river that was not attacked.

And finally Lt. Harward was for not guilty (Why)

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:25 pm

Pushed Submit to quickly
The above is regarding the Ntombe Drift,

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:26 pm

Peter, Preview before Submit should solve all your problems.

Very good to see you raising the bar on discussions here, Ron. I hope you are back to good health.

Dawn

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:08 am

One more point Peter, you can go to 'Edit' in the same bar in the top right to amend or add to your submission. It saves doing another Reply.

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:41 am

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:36 pm

Peter,
on the right hand side opposite the name of the topic there are two boxes, top right of your entry. One is 'Quote', the other is 'Edit'. Click on 'Edit' in your entry and it will give you the option to edit what you wrote. Press submit.
Alan

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:20 pm

Alan I have check over and over again I cannot see any Edit box

This is what I can see in the bar

B i u Quote Code List List= Img ULR

Font Colour Font Size Close Tags

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:14 pm

Peter,

I'll have to check with my son. I've checked it by logging in with a different name. Anyone else out there with the same problem?

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:12 pm

Harman

I've arrived late, but aren't you looking in the wrong place perhaps ?

Quote, Edit, Delete are in the top right of your submitted posting in the actual topic, not where you first write your post, when starting or replying to the topic.

I apologise if I've misunderstood.

Also, if your screen is only showing part of a topic (mostly the left and middle) there is a chance you might have to use the arrow at the bottom of your screen to move it along more to the right.

Hope this helps.

Coll

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:15 pm

Good to have you back Coll.

Peter (Harman), if you give me your password by private email, I can check if your account has problems, which I doubt. If you could do this soon, because I'm off to Canada on Monday, I'll let you know.

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:51 pm

See what a little arrow can do.

Thanks Coll.

Thanks Alan sorted> You can put your hair back in now.

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:51 pm

Ron
Good to hear from you.

Where/when did Stafford make his remark regarding Buller?

I have always thought that the "rank and file" had always looked up to Buller with respect as a leader. Certainly, by all accounts, he displayed immense bravery at Hlobane. Indeed, in BOTPM you state how Buller had been descibed by one of his officers as "a silent, saturnine and bloodthirsty man, as resolute a fighter as ever drew breath". He has also been described as "brave to the point of insanity". (Witness the episode with Mossop at the bottom of Devils Pass.) Doesn't seem, to me, like a leader where the award of a VC would be unpopular with his men.
I'm wondering if Stafford justified his remark in any way?