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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:37 pm

Pete Keane,

You obviously do not undertake military research - pay and muster roll I have looked through many - no NOK details, you may get the odd place of enlistment.

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Martin,

Thanks for that, saves me a wasted journey to Kew.

Pete.

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:09 pm

It is unfortunate that a soldier's name has been given to these remains found near the battlefield - are they British or zulu or have no link with 22 January 1879?

Now everyone wishes to be involved in resolving the mystery - even though the task is quite difficult even impossible as the documentary evidence has not survived. I would be quite happy for the remains to be buried formally as 'an unknown soldier of the AZW' - and in this way provide a focus for all those relatives who lost a family member in the AZW when visiting the battlefield.

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:58 pm

I think Martin's idea is an excellent one:

'an unknown soldier of the AZW' - and in this way provide a focus for all those relatives who lost a family member in the AZW when visiting the battlefield.

Particularly because, as he says, are these the remains of a Briton, a Zulu or someone else? An anonymous focus for all who visit Isandlwana would perhaps be a potent symbol transcending the divide of conflict and race.

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:28 pm

I cannot concur. Isandlwana does not need an unknown soldier; with only one or two exceptions they are all unknown soldiers and should be left undisturbed, where they fell, to rest in peace.

A grave or resting place has been violated, albeit unintentionally, and the matter needs to be put right. The remains need simply to be eliminated as those of a recent murder victim (not difficult, taxing or time-consuming - indeed this appears already to have been accomplished) and to be reinterred as close as practically possible to where they were unearthed. There should be a quick, no fuss, prayer or two said over them for decency's sake, in the presence of, and under the supervision of, some respectable local figures, like Peter Quantrill and Ken Gillings.

Such figures would, I am sure, as old soldiers, be the ideal people to see that the right thing is done by these remains. Then, Amafa should immediately pile some stones over the site, whitewash them, and there's an end to it.

Regards

Mike

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:35 pm

I tend to agree - whilst the current situation has a direct personal interest to myself and my family, I can probably achieve the answer I need using the normal genealogical avenues of enquiry and legwork.

On the other hand, AMAFA asked for help identifying whether remains were a Keane or not - quite a specific question, and one which we are happy to assist with.

If the answer is 'yes - its a Keane', then we know exactly what we knew 130 years ago - that a Keane died at Isandlwana.

If its not a Keane, then we know exactly the same.

I am grateful for the help from this site, and I do hope to answer our own family history question regardless of what is / isn't proven by AMAFA.

In some ways, the current situation has hindered rather than helped, as I can tell that not everyone is happy with the publicity in relation to C/Sgt Keane etc, however, this is the fourth military Keane we have tried to research (Pte Keane), and is the most difficult so far, and without the appeal for help being published this may have been left dormant - which would be a shame, not to do something because its difficult isn't a reason not to do it.

Regards

Pete Keane

*Just re-read my post - I should make it clear that we are not researching C/Sgt Keane, our interest is in Pte Keane, we have made the database available to AMAFA (if they choose to use it) at their request. Sorry if my posts were unclear.

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:21 pm

Martin,

Re-the Muster Rolls. How about on 'The Effects' page of those who for whatever reason became 'Non-Effective'? I have seen next-of-kin named on those pages including those of 24th casualties.

John Y.

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:37 am

John,

True - but not always completed. Keane could have had family with him in PMB. Which paymaster's roll is he on?? If born before 1860 in Ireland - difficult. This one is in the really difficult category.

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:40 am

The long standing convetion at the Isandlwana battlefield site has been for bone fragments found oin or near the battlefield to be interred beneath the floor of the small purpose built building to the immediate east of Saint Vincents 'Memorial' Church. Larger remains have usually been buried in a plot dedicated to that purpose in the nearby graveyard.

This has satisfactorily handled matters up till now and these interments are always handled with compassion and quiet dignity.

Having some bones and a button and without other contextual information there is simply no reason to proceed beyond this 'norm' and precedent.

The wish to have melodrama is starting to appear and should not dominate or skew what is usual, and evidently decent and appropriate.

G

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:10 am

Just catching up here. While appreciating these ideas of Martin & Paul, I do wonder if there are not, perhaps, already enough memorials on the battlefield? Even if yet another focus point were deemed appropriate, the use of these remains for such a purpose would, I believe, be unnecessary. I cannot put it any more succinctly than Mike and Galloglass, above, already have. In fact, does it not disturb anyone else that these remains, recently interfered with (albeit accidentally), have still not been re-interred - and for no good reason?

The discovery of a button near the remains, especially with JY's identifcation of the unit, cannot fail to interest many of us with a fascination for this battle. Yet an identification of the individual whose remains have been disturbed and the location of a living relative remains quite a long shot in my opinion. I certainly don't say that at this stage it would be impossible, but it could only be accomplished after both genealogical and DNA research, independent of each other.

As Martin says, this case (the military/genealogical research) certainly comes into the "difficult" category. It is too early to say yet how difficult. There will be military and civilian sources which may narrow down the search or provide a fortunate break - not all the potential military avenues by any means have been mentioned on this thread yet, but the absence of most of the usual initial "bread & butter" approaches does mean that it would be a fascinating case to crack. I am certain that civilian sources will be necessary as well, but the fact that the surname Keane was so common in Ireland, suggesting a possible Irish origin or connection - although, of course, Colour Sgt Keane himself may not have been Irish at all, or even had any connection with the place - does stack the odds much higher, given the shortcomings inherent in Irish genealogical research compared with English research of the same period.

I'm no expert on DNA but I would expect all genealogical research to be complete - on Keane and eventually at least some confirmed descendants or relatives, all proven through documentary research - before any DNA avenue can be approached. If a sample has been tested before re-interment and the results retained, then the results can be compared with already proven living relatives (once found, that is) as in the Romanov/Duke of Edinbugh example (where, fortunately, we already had the known relative, making it rather easy!) The usefulness of any existing database of Irish Keanes and connected families is a bit "iffy" I'd have thought. It cannot include all Keanes and their relatives - genealogically/mathematically impossible - and it should be remembered that there can be no suggestion at all that every Irish Keane family is necessarily related to each other, even distantly (any more than every English Smith, White or Brown is) and it should be obvious that every Irish family of whichever name will be related to countless Keane families, wherever they are in the world. I could easily see a "match" of the Keane database and the remains being wrong for both reasons - an erroneous claim that the remains belonged to Keane and an equally erroneous assumption that "he is not our man", when he still could be.

Which all makes AMAFA's initial public statement so premature as to be laughable.

Peter

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:55 am

Latest update:
Amafa Council has agreed to conduct a DNA test on the remains, which presumably will follow soon.
Mike S. Grateful you contact me privately.

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:36 pm

If there is successful extraction of forensically usable DNA then that removes any need for these remains to stay unburied and decent burial should follow as soon as possible afterwards, with dignity but without 'circus'.

Any demonstrably close descendent - should one ever be found - could visit or not any time later.

If DNA extraction fails or testing indicates that the ethnicity of the remains is unlikely to match any particular association with a named historical individual then we I would like to think that the Amafa Council would have the honesty, integrity and professionalism to say so publicly - and soon.

G

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:48 pm

Moreover, if context has been properly described so far, these are the mortal remains of a person and not some anthropological artefact to be kept in boxes or cupboards as am Amafa Council plaything.

At least three months of dithering and bluster have already passed.

So, attempt DNA testing, then bury. And quickly, lest organisational and personal reputations be subject to more robust challenge in future.

G

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:24 pm

Re: Martin's "difficulty" category...

Now I'd suspect that they'd have to really check spelling variants as well if they're going back in time. I'd wonder of the extent to which CS "Keane" could have been a possible "Keen", "Keene" or "Kean" on various historical rolls.

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:57 pm

Rich,

I believe that Martin is posing the question to which Muster Roll would Colour-Sergeant Keane have been attached to for his pay purposes.

For example the 1st Squadron, Mounted Infantry, despite coming from various units were carried on the Pay & Muster Roll of the 80th Regiment.

Basically it would entail searching, where they still exist, the Pay & Muster Rolls of the units in-country at the start of the campaign. Odds & sods men like Keane could crop up anywhere within the rolls.

John Y.