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Simon


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 95
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Hi Mike,

I did wonder about this translation, given the age of the book and the fact by their nature, Osprey books do not tend to give much information as to their source material.

I have been using an on-line Zulu/English translation site but unless you know the exact spelling of the Zuu word, you are struggling somewhat.

Cheers

Simon
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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Long Island NY USA
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Saw...
And on the Lion Sleeps Tonight, a Solomon Linda was the Zulu fellow who wrote it. Took a while for him to be recognized as the writer of the song that was such a hit here. Boy, I can argue that I've been around Zulu culture for a long time!!! Who knows? Maybe Solomon's song sowed the seeds of my fascination with Zulu history to this day. Thank you Solomon!

"In the jungle the might jungle the lion sleeps tonight"...OK join in with me now with the falsetto!!!! ...hee hee hee he he he bedumbumbeweh.....


And regarding the music....not sure but did Kubrick pick the music for Spartacus? If he did I guess he liked what Alex North wrote since he did that score.

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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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Although Kubrick directed SPARTACUS, the final say on it (as producer) was Kirk Douglas's. But I would imagine that he liked it if he asked North back for 2001 - though not so much that he kept him! As for the ZULU theme being used in the 1995 version of CRY, THE BELOVED COUNTRY, I did of course make that point in my book...
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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My apology, Sheldon. Your most excellent book does, of course, mention that Barry rearranged his own theme later for CtBC but that you had slipped my increasingly porous mind.

Rich, that's the interesting thing about the Solomon Linda song. He wrote it and recorded it in 1939 with a group called The Evening Birds and it sold possibly 100,000 copies becoming an underground hit in South Africa- chiefly among the Zulu laborers. It first received international exposure when The Weavers (with Pete Seeger) released it in 1951 and again by The Tokens in the early 60's. Yet the first version of the movie Cry the Beloved Country (the one by Korda) was released in 1951, so the song must have been recorded for the movie earlier then The Weavers record. And it sounds like Solomon Linda singing it in the movie (which I won't swear to) but it's not the version released on the record. A lost recording by Solomon Linda found? Perhaps Korda, when filming in Jo'Berg was seeking an "authentic" Zulu Mbube song and heard of Linda's tune or he simply drafted a local streetcorner group and told them to sing a song while he filmed. However it happened and whoever performs it, the presence of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" in a 1951 movie is remarkably little known-- dare I say virtually unknown?
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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Long Island NY USA
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Fascinating Saw with that song...You know if we recall there was a music "British invasion" here in the early 60's as well as some of our songs going over there. Now I'm wondering if the song itself got play over there in the UK and was it known as having a Zulu background??

Thanks Sheldon. I wondered how Alex felt when he gave the score to Mr. Kubrick. As we know he certainly was a man who knew what he wanted when it came to his films and.......music. Wink

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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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Stan was notoriously fastidious when it came to music (and everything else). Leonard Rosenman came close to killing him when SK attended a recording session for the score to BARRY LYNDON, claiming that a certain passage was a fraction of a second out - Rosenman reportedly had to be restrained from shoving his baton where the sun don't shine.
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Simon

Tossed a few pots with some Zulu officers tonight and didn't really get much further forward with it - but they agree that a big Zulu army might well seek to emulate bees - because they come in swarms and are terrifying and the metaphor is obvious - especially if you've ever seen a swarm of bees meaning business in this part of the world. I've seen it only once and am quite happy never to see it again!!

What's interesting is quite a lot that is written in the books we all read about the language and this meaning or that meaning, just doesn't seem to hold water when you talk to the guys in the flesh.

Regards

Mike
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Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 551
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While we're on the subject, is there any account of the Zulu Army sounding the Ingomane prior to battle during the AZW?

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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Long Island NY USA
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Paul.. Was that the "general" Zulu war cry before battle? Regarding war cries, Knight in his Companion makes reference to Lt Erskine, who survived Isandhlwana, that he heard Zulus yell "Ngqaka amatshe phezulu"....."catch the hailstones". Nice kind of image! Another war cry was "Inkomo ka baba!" when stabbing an enemy..."my father's cow". Knight notes the Army did not have a war cry per se but some regiments had phrases that they used.

And I thought this was apt regarding swearing by the British ....account attributed to Wolseley:

"The Rev Mr George Smith who was at the defence of Rorke's Drift is reported to have corrected the men for cursing whilst the fight was at its height.don't swear,men, don't swear, but shoot them, boys, shoot them".
p227 Companion to AZW...

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Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 551
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Hi Rich

I think that the iNgomane was the ritual drumming of assegais against shields.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?I'd=5yED9sco6RUC&lpg=PA83&ots=MqdrU0VAQR&dq=ingomane%2C%20zulu&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q=ingomane,%20zulu&f=false

(PS - how do you do that thing where you can put a URL reference into a single word like "see *here*" ?)

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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
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Location: Long Island NY USA
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Thanks Paul on getting me straight on 'ingomane'....

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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Rich

Too true, I'm afraid. Two or three defenders are on record as recalling that he was more concerned with the swearing than almost anything else. Or so it must have seemed to them at the time. Afterwards, both they and the soldiers involved in the second invasion appear to have thought very highy indeed of him as a man and as a chaplain, even if one or two officers considered him rather bloodthirsty for a parson!

Peter
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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Long Island NY USA
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Peter..That Reverend would no doubt in taking a page from WWII lore have said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammuntiion!"...

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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Rich

Or perhaps the other way round!!

One of the greatest lines to be found in all military history though eh?!

As ever

Mike
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rich


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Long Island NY USA
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I thought it was a good line too! And while we're on that military segue I'd be interested in your greatest military history line Cool .....ah! I daresay it could just be "England Expects"......etc etc????

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Rich
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Zulu Dawn soundtrack movie reference Inglorious Bastards
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