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Rich
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For the gun enthusiasts!...I get catalogs from time to time on military paraphernalia both old and new for sale. Yesterday I was intrigued with seeing this. I note the copy verbatim:

Martini Henry Rifles .450/.577 Calibre
British P-1871 Short Lever-the Martini-Henry, probably the most famous military rifle of the Victorian era, incorporated the early "short" lever with 33 inch barrel in the new .45 calibre. This was the first manufactured breech loader to be adopted for general issue by the British army. Internationally known for its role in the movies "Zulu" and "Zulu Dawn".
It should be noted that at the Battle of Isandhlnana (sp) in January 1879
, where the British lost its entire command of 1300 men, the Zulus suffered 2000 casualties. Followed by the memorable action at Rorke's Drift, the Martini-Henry Rifle more than any other represents British Colonial rule during the Victorian era.

Dates 1870's $795.00
Dates 1880's $595.00

The P-1871's were listed at $850.00-895.00. The P-1880s were in the $600-700 range. They could be fitted with MK1, MK3 or P-1876 bayonets.

Then they also list the P-1885 "long" lever which was to give greater leverage on case extraction. It's listed at $595.00

They really don't note if they are original or repros. Any comments fellows?
Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Eduardo
I have five Original WD arrow marked Martini foil cases, three de-act two still loaded, four are rifle, 1 red patched carbine.

The fact that the Martini case did break occasionally apart is not an issue, however I recommend buying a copy of the "Martini Treatise Vol 1" by Temple and Skennerton, in it is the original reports dating from 1870-74 with the trials of the Martini at Hythe, Fort William, Portsmouth, Rawul Pinda and various other garrisons/ regiments.
You will read the findings of the offical report are quite an eye opener, cases were deliberately mishandled, rapid fired and even subjected to heat an moisture, the amount of misfires & jamming is really very low, with some thousands of rounds being expended in the test. In some cases ammendments were made, a paper lining to the case, card wads etc. But essentially the ammo was found to be extremely reliable.

I know it would be difficult to conduct a 100% realistic test, but at the end of the day my rifle was made in 1875, blackpowder if RFG or FFG and is pretty much the same as in the day, beeswax is beeswax. Case extraction is the critical issue that cannot be truly reproduced. Even the round, which we make a slightly harder compound than in the day will react in very much the same way.

I will make some listings analysis of these reportsand post them,

regards

Neil

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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Rich,
My guess is (from the wording) that they're Tibetan. And therein lies a long, long story, but when all is said and done, they're original and the real deal. My spin is that firearms are second only to real estate for investment (in this country anyway), and you can't go to wrong! If you think you made a bad investment when you bought one, then wait ten years and the deal will look a lot sweeter! Unfortunately, quality and condition are where its at in firearms investment and you've no control there. Martini's were a dime a dozen back in the 70's (OK, $75.00 each) so why didn't I grab about a dozen? 'Cause I didn't have the money or the vision!
Can anyone out there give Rich the lowdown on the Lost Arsenal in Tibet? I'd give it a shot, but my facts are still a bit hazy anc I can't get hold of the book!
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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And Neil,
Again, it's a pleasure to have you share your savvy. It's a damn shame that you would have to fire vintage ammo or otherwise could be accused of " shading" the results and even when you did your best to remain "uninvolved" and pissed through a small fortune in MH coiled brass ammo, someone somewhere would point to the fact that the ammo was over 125 years old and therefore not a representative of how it would have performed in 1879! Catch twenty-two or what?
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Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Rich


The guns are original, they eminated from the Royal Arsenals at Lagan Silekhana and Timu, Katmandu, Nepal. They were hoarded there for over a century, albeit in poor conditions. That said there have been some classy pieces found,

The cache was bought in 2002 by the IMA corporation of America, there was 52000 small arms from Flintlocks, muskets, P1853's, P1857's, Sniders, Martini's, Lee Mets, Lee Ens, Lewis, Vickers, stens, FN's to name but a few. My website www.martinihenry.co.uk will be updated in the next few weeks with a detailed page on the Martinis found.

I would buy the book "Treasure is where you find it" by Christian Cramner for whole run down. If you are based in the States it is worth giving the IMA a call, for UK buyers I have some, Worldwide and firepower have some.

Regards

Neil

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Rich
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Gentlemen..Thank you all for your replies. You fellows are on the ball.
Please understand that I've been livng in New York all my life and consequently I am VERY skeptical on stuff like this. One eye always looks at the rifle the other eye is always floating around checking out er...the "firing area". Good to know that the rifles are legit. As you probably know, the catalog also listed the "Nepalese Gahedra Rifle" used by Gurkha regiments. They termed it an "extremely rare historical antique rifle" though I was surprised to see it cost much lower than the other Martini-Henry's listed ($495.00).
Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Rich
The Gehendra is actually alot rarer than the British Martini, in actual fact it's a Nepalese copy of the Martini, albeit with an action derived on the Westley Richards falling block. They were built around 1880.

The Gehendra was locally made, it suffered from inadequate barrel boring machinery and was all hand made. It did serve as an interim, until the British exported 8000 Mk 2's in Nov 1894, then 12000 Mk4's in 1908.

When British 85 grain ammo was used in them they became more of a threat to the firer than the target as they often burst.

If you want the closest Martini to Zulu provenence, ask for an Mid 1870's dated example, it will be an Updated Mk2 which is historically correct for the period. They do have some BSA made late 1880's mark 2's, they look 100% right, but the dates are wrong. Do be prepared to spend along time restoring the woodwork (they are heavily oil impregnated).

regards

Neil
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Eduardo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 13
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Neil,

I do not know about the report you mentioned, but I have to say, it sounds extremely difficult to believe; please do not get me wrong; I have no reason to doubt what you are saying, it's just that the findings would seem to go against all logic. According to your post, the report states that after thousands of rounds, there were few jammings and misfires......Misfires is of course an entirely different matter...but few jammings only? What about barrel fouling? Did they clean the barrels after so many shots? Do you imaging the "leading" of the barrels after thousands of shots fired? And no cook offs?

I will confess, I have never fired thousands of rounds in quick succesion with my black powder rifle, but I know the fouling I get after two or three rounds. I am inclined to believe that after firing a few thousands of rounds in rapid succesion, the barrel (any black powder barrel) would be so fouled up, that the shooter would probably have difficulty chambering the next round.

Even buffalo hunters in the U.S. West who whould seat and confortably decimate the herds firing plenty of rounds, would run a patch now and then.
Coiled brass did create extraction problems....I do not understand why this was not an issue during the test.
Finally, we have to grant some credibility to Hook's comments (after all, he was there, done that), who declares that all of the above did indeed happen.
Cheers!
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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No doubt there were many contributing factors to British firepower/bodycounts, in their many little wars, although I would have expected better results in some of them, esp if I was in charge, and/or my life depended on it.

I read recently that the position of the British square (four ranks deep, I believe) at Ulundi was clearly visible by the number of spent cartridges (given as 37,000) on the ground.

Now that's a lot of coiled brass lying around.

Wonder what the value would be on today's collectors market ?

The descendants of anyone smart enough to collect a helmet full to take home, and maybe a couple of assegais as wall hangers, would no doubt be living in luxury on the proceeds today.

Given the use of the field guns, and the gatlings, as well, and then the cavalry charge at the end, when the Zulus were retiring, their killed at 1,500 does not seem particularly high.

I have no idea of the total Zulu casualties, but no doubt there are some estimated figures available.

Needless to say, the British casualties at 90-100 were very light, but given that the Zulus never got close enough for hand to hand combat, this is not surprising.

Anyone more qualified than I, care to comment ?

ta,
Sean
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Neil Aspinshaw


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Location: Loughborough
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Eduardo
This weekend I intend to do a poll of the 1874 reports and post the findings, what I did read last night was that Martins were immersed in water, sand etc for the trials.

I am not aware of any particular order to clean bores, but then again it is a 20 second job with the cleaning rod just to fit a small flannel in the hole at the bugle end of the rod, a jag would be more time consuming.

Neil

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Peter Quantrill
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Sean,
The approximate casualties and ammunition expenditure are shown in "Zulu Vanquished," as are Zulu casualties. However, it must be remembered that the Zulu will to aggressively assault the British square had been lacking as a result of the substantial casualties suffered during the war, particularly at Kambula. The exception was Zibhebhu kaMaphita's attack on the 2/21st Royal Scots Fusiliers and the 58th Regiment. and it is recorded in the volume 4 of the James Stuart Archive that both "Matatshile" and "Dumusa" were bayoneted on reaching the square.
Of the Zulu casualties sustained, the estimate of 1,500 includes numerous numbers who were wounded and subsequently dispatched. (Only four recorded prisoners taken.)
The ammunition expenditure of the Second Division, for example, reflects the following:
205 all ranks of the 2/21st ....... 1,739 rounds.
407 all ranks of the 58th .........2,510 rounds
600 all ranks of the 94th ............3,620 rounds

N/5 Battery RA .........................22 rounds of 'Shrapnell Shell.'
N/6 Battery RA .......71 rounds of Shell including three Rockets.
11/7 Battery RA 108 rounds
The two Gatlings fired 3,000 rounds.
So, yes, the number of rounds of both rifle and artillery fire was substantial within the time scale, but the Zulu attack was partially shielded by dead ground and as volley fire was exercised, the smoke factor also came into play.
The Zulu retreat probably resulted in extensive long range and ineffective fire.
Bettigton however reported that his twelve men fired 240 rounds during the pursuit and claimed 45 killed.
Total all rank British and colonial casualties amounted to something of the order of 13 KIA and 88 wounded.
To those who have not seen this seemingly unpopular battlefield, it is worth the time and I am not just referring to the monument that represents the position of the square ( which is incidentally well- cared for) Both the Mthonjaneni Heights, and Dingane's Spring, together with the sloping ground below Fort Nolela are worth a closer look. A vist to Nqunqa Bluff is fantastic as one can walk down to the spot where Zulu marksmen were located, with a spectacular view looking down on the Umfolozi covering both Drifts, nearly a mile apart, that were crossed by Buller and Chelmsford.
The Ultimatum Tree incidently is nearly currently lapped by a fast flowing Tugela with copious recent rains.
spikesmith


Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 13
Location: North Somerset
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When I was in the RAF (I left in 1997), we had regular weapons refresher courses. Even with modern weapons and ammunition, it was said that the average firer had only a 1 in 20 chance of hitting a moving target with a single shot in daylight - less than half that at night or in dim light (OK, the army's record may be better than we blue jobs' but I suspect not that much more so). Given the comparative lightness and ease of operation of something like the SA80 (and the greater ease of movement offered by modern combat clothing), I don't find it difficult to believe that a soldier dressed in the heavy kit of the day, lugging 9 or so pounds of unwieldy MH around, surrounded by smoke and suffering from the stress of battle would have so many shots that didn't count even at close range. I believe that one of the biggest problems armies face in training recruits is in getting them to aim and fire their weapon directly at another human being - even in battle. It seems we have an inbuilt, subconcious inhibition against such things and, even a skilled target marksman can find their aim affected.

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Spike
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Interesting!
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Just want to say that everything discussed in this thread is of paramount interest and importance to us humble modders of Zulu Total War. I myself have been experimenting with the 'system' we will apply to the mod and I am plagued (to a certain degree) with balancing all these factors to get it just right - accuracy, ammunition carried, jamming (w/c CAN'T be simulated in Rome Total War unfortunately - since you really can't 'jam' a bow and arrow! - the game doesn't simulate gunpower weapons and we're just working around that limitation), troop quality, etc.

I've been experimenting mainly with ranges and weapon power. Pitting a 120 man 'company' against about 240-280 'Zulus' with 400 yards (at least I think it's yards - it might be meters but it was never actually made crystal clear what scale they used!) range for the Brit rifles (the armies start out about 600 yards distant I think) with about 20% accuracy, I'm always forced to fix bayonets before impact. However by this time the 'Zulus' have taken severe casualties (rifles are a GREAT equalizer in these tests - sometimes I can 'decapitate' the Zulu advance by hitting their commander!) and are often forced to retreat though they usually savage at least one 'platoon' before running. That being done though, I usually can wipe out the entire group as they rout away.

Now there's something wrong with this picture I'm sure.

Perhaps if I can get some of the variables right, we could try play testing all the thoughts here in the game?

Anyways just letting you guys know that I'm following this thread with great interest!

Best wishes,
Tom (Harlechman)
Zulu Total War Team, RTW
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spikesmith


Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 13
Location: North Somerset
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Tom
I used to shoot a bow for the RAF archery team and it IS possible to jam a bow and arrow. The shooter just needs to draw far enough that the shaft slips from the rest and sticks into the inside of the curve. Normally all that results is that the arrow falls to the floor and there is a red face. However, if theslippage isn't noticedbefore the string is loosed the pressures involved are awsome and I've seen wooden arrows shatter sending splinters everywhere (metal arrows simply tend to bend). Admittedly it doesn't happen often - certainly I've had more rifle stoppages than bow ones - and clearing the weapon is easier than clearing a firearm!

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Spike
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I stand corrected
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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I guess I should have said you more normally hear of guns getting jammed rather than bows or guns get jammed more often than bows.

Hopefully it's also safer to unjam than a rifle.

Darn that must be NASTY!!!

Cheers!

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Tom "Harlechman"
Zulu Total War Team,
a Rome TW: BI mod.
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Bodycount / Firepower
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