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Neil Aspinshaw
| Joined: 05 Sep 2005 |
| Posts: 290 |
| Location: Loughborough |
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 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:37 pm |
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Paul
The Elcho is the one of the rarest MH bayonets, alongside the P75 sawback both only issued for trials only.The Coppel Elcho's are as Sawumbona says later "copies".
The Cutlass bayonet was issued to Naval contingent, images of them at Ginginlovu and at fort Tendos show them armed with the cutlass.
The Yataghan was standard issued to NCO's, and certainly used at Isandlwana, and then as standard issue in the Sudan. As well as the bushing there is a mortice slot cut at the pommel to facilitate the lesser diameter of the Martini barrel.
The Artillery Sawback became standard issue C1880, and continued until well into the 1900's.
I have shot my Martinis with the Yataghan fitted, the P1887 and the sawback, all do have the effect of pulling the muzzle down, it does though reduce the recoil lift, but I wouldn't want to carry for a long time.
The carbine with the sawback fitted jumps around like a bucking bronco, the flex of the blade acts like whiplash and you really have to hold on.
I disagree with Sawumbona, fixing bayonets was at the discression of the OC, he would decide as and when to fix. The lunger on both its P53/74 and P76 do not unduly affect accuracy, and in open order or in bush where the chance of a rapid assualt was high fixing bayonets was order of the day.
The men did bayonet drill over and over again, and fixed bayonets was a fact of life, and very much of life and death, the drill manuals of C1870 had heavy bayonet fighting in its drill, you wont see many contemporary images of battle without bayonets fixed. the training encouraged the stance, in particular for defence, rather than offence.
Drill was
1) Port arms
2) Charge bayonets
3) Guard (soldier takes balance squat, right foot pace back, left foot at anchor point twisting from hips to various stances)
4) point (thrust)
5) High guard, assailant from front above (thrust)
6) Low guard assailant from trench or up fortification (thrust)
The guard left and right with the high and low guards, left foot remains affixed.
7) Head parry, cavalry sword hack
 Shorten arms direct frontal defence (thrust)
Do this for hours at a time and the boyenet is just another item on the gun
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Neil
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Sawubona
| Joined: 09 Nov 2005 |
| Posts: 1179 |
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:04 pm |
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And there you have it, Paul. As always we can look to Neil for a definitive response to our questions about Martinis, Enfields and their various accessories. I can only spew out the "book larnin'" while we all wait for the hands-on experts chime in.
I was guilty of "trolling" a bit, Neil, when I wrote the bit about "not generally fitted in combat"--hence the "most patterns" qualifier. As late as the notorious Somme Offensive of The Great War, practical bayonets (like the '76, the '88 and the '03) certainly were fitted in combat. Me bad  !
Although the Elcho was only issued as a "Trilas, Approved Pattern" (Skennerton and Richardson phrase) bayonet, total production at Enfield for these trials did amount to over 1600. That number alone suggests that at one point at least, it was seriously considered for regular issue. Though very rare in collections today indeed, they are out there.
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Neil Aspinshaw
| Joined: 05 Sep 2005 |
| Posts: 290 |
| Location: Loughborough |
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:14 pm |
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Sawumbona
Indeed a good elcho eludes me, I have first refusal on an 1875 patern sawback, which is like the p1887 but fullered and saw-backed, these were reputed to be for the Swinburn Henry Rifle, as they have similar J.K markings, but I am unable to quantify this. In tests the Elcho stood up well to the various tasks, for more detailed readind Skennetons Tratises' book three (the green one) gives excellent test evaluation.
I believe the sword bayonet was always intended to be the preffered bayonet for the Martini rifle system, hence all service guns had the bayonet bar on the front band.
There is no doubt the P1875 sword was a more durable weapon than the P76, in nearly all respects, cost though prevented its genreal issue, the Sudan campaign, in particualr when engaging adversaries with Hippo hide sheilds and chain mail did the Army select committee go back to the P1875 concept, and adopt the sword bayonet as standard in the P1887 in its Mk1, 2 & 3 format. The stopgap was the re-issue in large numbers of the Yataghan to the camel corps.
I have now added a 1887 Mk4, made from the Converted Enfield Martini Mk1 bayonet (designed to be fitted under the muzzle, with a hole for the rod) in the SMLE style, so come out Mr Elcho wherever you are!
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Neil
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Sawubona
| Joined: 09 Nov 2005 |
| Posts: 1179 |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:42 am |
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Paul, we'll both have to wait for Neil to chime in on some of your more technical questions, but I can handle one of them at least. The Lee-Metford was designed to fire a black powder .303 round, as were the upgraded Martinis (which were re-barreled for the new .303 round) . During the Second South African War, the Boers wisely armed themselves with German supplied Mausers (at least in the beginning), which fired a smokeless cartridge. Afterward, the British, finally having recognized the obvious advantages of the newer, smokeless round, began to issue the same for their old Lee-Metfords, but discovered that the older Metford rifling (engineered for black powder) fouled badly and was torn apart by the new cordite cartridges (smokeless powder). Enfield to the rescue! New rifling on a barrel mated to a proven Lee receiver! Result? The Lee Enfield! Arguably the birth of the finest bolt action rifle ever produced.
FYI, in the British naming system, the first name in the compound name of a rifle was the designer of the receiver and the second name is the designer of the rifling. "Martini-Henry" = an "action" designed by F. Martini attached to a barrel designed by A. Henry.
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Neil Aspinshaw
| Joined: 05 Sep 2005 |
| Posts: 290 |
| Location: Loughborough |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:11 am |
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Paul,
You are correct about the Martini "anti Zeppelin" round, it was an incendiary round, and a cordite load.
Cordite was introduced in 1893, two years after the full introduction of the Lee Metford. It provided two headaches.
The speed of the cordite bullet (approx 2200 fps) compared to the BP Metford bullet (approx 1800 fps) and higher burning temps wore the rifling out and barrel life was dropped from 12,000 rounds to approx 5,000. Also the trajectory meant the range indications on the sight ladder went to pot, so many of the Lee Mets and Martini Mets in store at Weedon were converted. Due to the increased deflection the foresight barleycorn was offset.
It is likely that quite alot of BP .303 rounds were still in service, even though they were declared obsolete by 1898, most were shipped back to England for Volunteer and Militia use in the early C20th, as until this time most Volunteer Btns and Cadet were still Martini Armed.
Enfields rifling system was perfect for the cordite load, and the Lee Enfield Mk1, whilst resembling the Lee met Mk1 externally is hard to spot the Difference, except a "E" stamped on the top of the barrel knocksform.
There was a cordite round developed for the Martini Henry, this is easily distinguished by the orange paper patching to the bullet.
There was no purpose made Martini Enfield rifles or carbines, most were service .450 Mk2 or Mk3 rifles or carbines, re-barreled. This was carried out at Enfield, also at the Henry Rifled Barrel Company of Hoxton London. They were simply stamped on the left of the receiver such as HRB Co, Crown, M-M, .303". BSA did make two patterns of Martini Metford, the Mk5 & Mk6 in 1889-90. Most went to Natal, Australia and Canada, so no doubt found their way to the Boer war front.
The Boers, had bought large quantities of Martini types, prior to the war from Westley Richards in Birmingham, this was a "Francotte" drop out action, and the rifling was nine, not seven grooved. Easily spottable they have the distinctive ZAR (Zudanese Afrikaans Republik) stamps. WR was asked by the British authorities why he had supplied them, his response was simple "well I haven't had on order from the war office since 1869!", I believe they saw his point.
Another rifle supplied in large quants to the Boer was the Guedes, another "Martini" derivative from Belgium, made by Steyr and Witten, it fired a 9mm black powder round, and was not popular as it did somewhat give the game away. However the Boers soon learned to put the BP shooters in forward positions, this would draw on the infantry to be put into killing zones, 1000 yard from concealed Boer riflemen at rear
The Boers soon aqquired large quantities of 7.62 mausers from Germany, performance-wise they were on a par with the British Lee derivatives, sighting was better (the old Whitworth pattern still used on the L-M and L-E was no-where as good as the mauser, even since the P71/84 of twenty years before), where it did excel is the clip loading, whereas the Lee had to be loaded singular rounds at a time into the magazine, the boers could do ten in three seconds.
Not being one to stop leaning, soon after the war finished a "Charger loader" bridge was fitted to alot of Lee M & Es and the nomalclature changes to CLLE, which allowed for clips of five.
A Bayonet could be fitted to the Mauser, however usually if it got to bayonet fighting the Boers had a tendancy to scarper, rather than take hand to hand combat.
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Neil
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I do however have a lovely and old hippo hide shield (which I think I "stole" because nobody else at the auction recognized it ). I think that therein lies a bit of "wow factor" for the cognoscenti?
Go figger!