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Can Anyone Give More Information About R.W.F. Droogleever ?
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I would be very keen to know more about this author.

I imagine that someone who wrote a book about Col. Durnford, must have felt so strongly in his opinion of Anthony, the incident at Bushman's Pass and the battle at Isandlwana, that he wanted to 'put pen to paper'.

Thankyou

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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Rob Droogleever has co-authored and edited other publications (two on Aussie involvement in the 2ABW) & was, I understand, working on Thorneycroft's MI but I don't know if anything has come out yet. (Inter alia, Thorneycroft was involved with Bethune's MI in the relief of RD/Isandlwana/Nqutu in May 1900).

As you probably know, JY assisted the author on the Durnford book, which followed RWFD's D.Litt thesis. I'm sure others will be able to fill in a bit more.

Peter
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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I have a copy of Robin Drooglever's D. Litt. et Phil. thesis, called 'A Figure of Controversy: Colonel Anthony Durnford in Natal and Zululand 1873 -1879. I photocopied all 298 pages of it in the libarary of Uni. of KZN Pietermaritzburg and then had it bound by them for the princely sum of ZAR90 (�6)!

The work, as one might expect, is much detailed and annotated than his book. The thesis was presented to the Uni. of SA in 1982 and the book was not published until ten years later. I have no information about Drooglever's current employment or work.
KIS
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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Is there a protocol for requesting copies of Doctoral theses from UKZN (or elsewhere for that matter)? I'm afraid I'm not now in a position to visit in person!

MAB
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Michael B

It is unlikely that 'the man in the street' could successfully request a copy since this is reserved for students through their own inter-library loan facilities. As I said, I visited personally and photocopied the thesis (at ZAR0.20 a page, total ZAR60.00) and then asked them if they would bind it. Perhaps one day you may be able to visit yourself and get a copy.

KIS
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Thanks for your replies.

Mentioning students, I've been wanting to do a course (home study) in a subject that I am interested in, to at least have obtained some sort of qualification, to feel that I've achieved something.

Both my interests being the AZW (of course) and Garden Design (the latter I'm seriously considering)

It was said, and quite rightly so, in the old forum, that you have to put in the work (researching, visiting archives, libraries, etc.) rather than being able to just log on to the internet and be given all the relevant information without breaking a sweat.

However, although there is not (I don't think) such a course available for the AZW (especially being specifically connected to Durnford and Isandlwana) I certainly would have liked to have done that instead of one garden-related. I'm a keen amateur of the AZW, but although I've got a reasonable library of books to study and form opinions, it would have been great to acquire a qualification on the subject.

Anyway, I don't think I would qualify for a student loan to obtain the literature necessary for making such an in-depth study.

A Garden Design qualification may be handy in the future.

Thanks again

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Rich
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Keith:

You don't think that one day perhaps the thesis would ever be put on the Net say through Google "scholar search" for example? And as far as cost perhaps one could pay for it if they wanted it so there wouldn't be a problem on that end with the holder of the book or thesis.

And on another note. I think I confused myself here with the Court of Inquiry documents. From the posts here, it was noted that the COI was done but at this point I'm really not sure if this ever was printed up and available for purchase by a publishing house. Or is this like the thesis where we have to go to where it physically is? Thanks.
Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Rich

The BRP Court of Enquiry was held at Pietermaritzburg from October 1874 to mid-December. Sadly, the official records of the COE were destroyed on instructions from, probably, the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The very detailed information relating to the incident was therefore extracted by Drooglever from the Natal Witness. Durnford's own evidence was printed in that newspaper on 11 December 1874. It may not help you too much but for those in the UK, copies of the Natal Witness (and other contemporary Natal papers) can be found in the British Newspaper Library at Colindale, London. Incidentally, the terms of reference were 'to enquire into all aspects of the expedition relative to the [Natal] Carbineers and to decide whether those on the Pass "merited censure" '. (Here I am quoting Drooglever.)
KIS
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Rich
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Thank you Keith. Records destroyed, eh? May I ask if it's likely that perhaps somewhere, somewhere copies were "unofficially" made and are now stowed away lying in somebody's attic just waiting to be unearthed? To use an old adage are we just "whistlin' Dixie here???" It's too bad.
Like Mike Snook noted before, we have the COI on the Custer fight and for myself I just love to read through it. I know I'd get the same out of the AZW COI. You can rest assured that if I unearth the documents I will take the responsibility to make them available to all!!!!
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I've a feeling that I may have misunderstood a previous posting, but is there a book covering full details of the Court of Inquiry about Gen. Custer and the Little Bighorn, or is it actual documents ?

I've got two books about the Little Bighorn (unread at the moment - I've still got a lot of reading to do), one covering the battle, the other being archaeology of the battlefield, plus the documentary shown on television (last year ?).

A third book covering the Court of Inquiry would be great.

With discussing a Court of Inquiry re-enactment on a recent topic, it would assist me well, in understanding the process of an in-depth C.O.I.

Thankyou

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Rich
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Coll:

The book I have and I'm not sure Mike S has is titled:

"Reno Court of Inquiry
Proceedings of a Court of Inquiry In The Case Of Major Marcus A. Reno
Concerning His Conduct At The Battle Of The Little Big Horn River June 1876..Compile and Edited by Ronald A Nichols"

The book was published by the
Custer Battlefield Historical and Museum Association
PO Box 129
Crow Agency Montana 59022

The volume contains the official version of the COI and is a verbatim copy of the original records now in the National Archives in Washington DC.
All of it is based on sworn testimony by officers and enlisted men. Note this wasn't a courts-martial. No charges were ever filed against the Major for his conduct at the LBH.
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Rich

Many thanks for your assistance.

I think the amount of books covering Little Bighorn equals/or even exceeds those for Isandlwana, which makes it difficult to select the ones containing the information required for a reasonable idea of all areas - the battle, the aftermath and studying the battlefield many years later.

My concern was that books, although mentioning the Court of Inquiry, may have only done partial coverage of it, when full details are necessary in order to understand the process.

As Durnford has previously been compared to Custer, and Isandlwana to Little Bighorn, such an in-depth C.O.I., seems quite apt.

Now I have an actual title for such a book, once it is obtained, will fit nicely between the 2 books I already possess, making a very pleasing set.

Thanks very much.

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Rich
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Hey Coll going for a thesis? I figure there's a nice piece of examination one can look at regarding an analysis of Reno and Durnford and the role of their personality and behavior in finding themselves in a pretty big pickle and brought to task for their battlefield behavior. Geography doesn't matter, US or South Africa, since men under extreme battle pressure feel it anywhere!
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Rich

Interesting idea.

However, I'm not yet 'wise in the knowledge' of the battle at the Little Bighorn, or the behaviour and tactics of the participants. (Although I do have a rough idea of the events and officers involved)

Are you not tempted to try such an analysis yourself ?

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Rich
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hmm...seems lots of stuff can happen when one makes tongue in cheek comments!!!....as to your qustion yes but I think I'd first meet with a thesis advisor preferably one knowledgeable in American military, Indian and West history. There could be some things to explore there but maybe just not enough for a thesis.

In any case, the battles were similar to the extent a command got wiped out, there were questions on generalship and their personalities, opponents were third world inhabitants in a clash with countries filled with "manifest destiny" if you will, hanky panky in the political and high echelon military affairs with the requisite coverups and finally fingering a fall guy for the loss of an entire command. Maybe it could warrant a short article,eh???
Can Anyone Give More Information About R.W.F. Droogleever ?
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