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Quick question about CSM
Miguel en Canarias


Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 3
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Please excuse my ignorance, but I would like to ask:

Who was the Colour Sergeant Major of the 24th?
How many Colour Sergeants were in the 24th?
If a CS wore the red band, what exterior sign denoted the regimental CSM?
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Miguel,

To my knowledge here was no such rank as 'Colour Sergeant Major' in the British Army of 1879.

The Sergeant-Major of the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment was Frederick Gapp, who died at Isandlwana, on 22nd January 1879.

Ideally, according General Orders, each battalion should have had 8 Colour-Sergeants; one per-company.

The insignia of rank of Sergeant-Major was four chervons, surmounted by a crown, worn on the cuff. Like the all N.C.O.'s of the substantive rank of Sergeant and above, the Sergeant-Major would wear a sash, or as you describe it a 'red band'.

I hope that helps?

If you need photographic evidence of the uniforms and insignia, please contact me via 'Private Messages'.

John
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Miguel en Canarias


Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 3
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Hello John,

Thank you, your response was very informative as usual. The mention of a 'Colour Sergeant Major' was my mistake, induced by the acronym CSM.

I thought that only Colour-sergeants wore the red sash, differenciating them from normal sergeants. My mistake again.

John, can I ask:

What rank would this figure have? Sergeant or Colour Sergeant?
http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/74001p4.htm

Did the sergeants at Isandhlwana and Rorke's drift use the Pattern 1860 (Yataghan) Sword Bayonet?
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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hola Miguel,

The Dragon figure is a Sergeant. In that order of dress a Colour-Sergeant would have a crown above the chervons.

The substantive Sergeants and above would have used the 1871 pattern sword bayonet, a bushed conversion of the Enfield/Snider-Enfield sword bayonet.

Regards,

John


Last edited by John Young on Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Adrian Whiting


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Dorset, England
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Miguel,

"CSM" denotes a Company Sergeant Major. This was not a rank or appointment available for use in 1879. Currently I believe CSMs are ranked as Warrant Officer Class 2. I believe the position of Company Sergeant Major came into being when Battalions reoganised into the four company structure (having previously been an 8 company structure, as in 1879). As John indicates, since each company had a Colour Sergeant, when the number of companies reduced this would have left two Colour Sergeants per company. As I recall, the senior one was promoted to Warrant Officer 2, and appointed the Company Sergeant Major. This was the structure in use at the outbreak of the Great War in 1914.

Just to clarify regarding the Sergeant Majors of the 24th Regt. The badge of rank, as John described, was worn with chevron points down, on the lower right sleeve only - for Line Regiments.

_________________
Hope this assists,
Adrian
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Miguel en Canarias


Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 3
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Adrian,

Thanks to you as well. Of course it has been of great assistance.

I am trying to assert the historic accuracy of that Dragon figure. It claims to represent a sergeant at Rorke's drift.

The website with all the details is here:
http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/74001p1.htm

Other than the obvious fact that Sean Connery didn't serve at Rorke's drift, the only mistake I can tell is the use of the Pattern 1860 (Yataghan) Sword Bayonet, which according to an authority like John Young is not historically correct.

They provide an additional overseas cork helmet without the regimental badge and 'tea tainted', so that wouldn't be a thing.

But maybe you can take a few minutes and spot other mistakes?

I don't know if any of the sergeants present at RD looked like the figure, so maybe I'll have to withdrawn that Sean Connery crack.

Thank you both.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Miguel,

The obvious error is that the belt buckle has the word 'Regiment', rather than the abbreviation Regt. on it.

As to the 1871 sword bayonet, it does have a 'Yataghan' blade.

John
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I wonder if Dragon Models will make a Col. Durnford figure ?

I imagine that would be the nearest I could get to a statue being constructed ! (scaled down of course)

Certainly would make a very collectible (alternative) addition to my collection.

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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Coll,

Britains produced a set entitled 'Durnford's Last Stand', sadly it appears not to have caught on and was withdrawn.

There was also a Mike French figure based on Burt Lancaster, rather than the real McCoy.

John
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Quick question about CSM
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