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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Except that, as Keith and Paul point out, you won't be in a position to match each word of the two languages - no more than phrases at the most. Quite apart from all the other factors, languages have different word orders (try German!) to each other and although you could certainly compare certain phrases and sentences between the two languages in Callaway's work, you could seldom be sure which English word matched which Zulu word - if, indeed, there was a match anyway. Translation doesn't work like that. It would act as a very rough guide only (to your reading) but, although Callaway intersperses guidance now & again, there would not be much advice on pronunciation.

It is certainly a beautiful language to listen and to Saw's tip of a film with Zulu spoken but with English sub-titles sounds good to me - especially as you could go over any bit again by playing back. If you don't want to learn the language it is difficult to know what to offer to give you just a feel (which is what you seem to want) or what a sentence or phrase looks like in Zulu. I think hearing it is important. I don't speak any but I know keith and Paul have both had a bit of a bash - and Saw, clearly.

Saw - I don't know about KZN, but, generally, outside America (or at least this side of the pond) asking for the bathroom would indicate the need for a bath, whereas I gather it indicates something else over there!

Peter
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Peter E.

Yes. On reflection, hearing it spoken along with other sources for learning the Zulu language, would be extremely beneficial.

I just wonder how Zulu would sound being spoken with a Scottish accent ! Shocked

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P.S. Sawubona - Thanks for the suggestions. Wink
Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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The problem with "reading" any non-Germanic language, Coll, is that Zulu (like Gaelic) simply doesn't transliterate well. It's very difficult to give an English equivalent to a phoneme from another language and even more so by far to a phoneme that doesn't exist in our language. "Hlobane" is a good example. You've read the word a thousand times or more, but if you heard it pronounced properly, I doubt you'd even recognize it. You might want to take out your dentures before trying to get that initial phoneme right, 'cause I, for one, can't produce near enough saliva for it with all of my teeth in place. And don't worry about the "clicks" in Zulu though, there really aren't that many . Don't go near Xhosa, though! Arguments over the "proper" pronunciation of just that very word "Xhosa" caused at least three of the Frontier Wars (by some accounts).

My point? You can't learn even the most rudimentary Zulu by reading it. You have to hear it.


Last edited by Sawubona on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Saw

You are absolutely right about the pronunciation of isiZulu, and especially the 'hl' combination and the clicks. Morris (for once) did something right and gives some indication of the pronunciation of all four. In my copy it is on page 615-616 and is headed 'Notes on Zulu Orthography'.

My only tip about the voiceless fricative 'hl' is that a close approximation may be found in the Welsh 'll'. Perhaps Paul might have a view on that.

In my experience, the 'clicks' occur as frequently in isiZulu as in isiXhosa, the two being almost dialects of the original Southern Nguni language.

KIS
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Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 551
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You gotta love dem voiceless alveolar lateral fricatives ... Wink

Zulu has a sound very like the Welsh Ll (as in Llanelli), except that theirs is pronounced more strongly than ours, and more forward in the mouth. In modern Zulu orthography I believe it is written hl. My only linguistic claim to fame is surprising the KZN locals by pronouncing Hlobane and Hluhluwe marginally less inaccurately than most tourists: one of the Zulu guides actually asked me "How did you learn to do that?" He was more than a little surprised to discover that we do it all the time. Cool Apparently most Europeans tend to say something along the lines of Shlobane / Shlushluwe, and as you know, Zlobane is often the transliteration used in 1879. You make the hl sound by saying the letter L and letting your tongue remain where it would after saying the letter. Then you breathe (gently!). If you like linguistics, the sound is [ɬ].

The Zulu hl is not, however, the same as dl (as in Isandlwana), which is, I am given to understand, [ɮ] (the voiced alveolar lateral fricative). Actually, Morris was wrong about the pronunciation of Isandlwana: the two sounds are quite dissimilar to my ear. This is one of the reasons - pace Julian - why, orthographically, Isandhlwana and Isandlwana are not the same. Although I have to say that, historically, I agree with his reasons for retaining the older spelling (we don't now talk about the siege of Beijing!): it's just that the orthography has changed in the meantime. But then again, I'm reliably informed that Zulu orthography is not set in stone.
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As very much a beginner, I'll need to just gradually build up the necessary literature/cds/films, as finances allow.

I'm certainly determined enough to pursue the Zulu language as part of my learning process - though roughly not fluently.

Thanks for all the help.

Coll
Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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It certainly is a "beautiful" language, Coll. For me it's not so much the sound of it, there are certain phonemes that I find harsh almost vulgar, but rather the insight it offers into the heart and mind of the speakers. "Sawubona", the singular greeting, is a good example. Although typically translated as "hello" (a word in English which when you think about it really has no meaning beyond it's use) and used in the same situations, the literal translation of "Sawubona" is actually "I see you", which I find far more expressive. Parenthetically, it's often said with both empty palms facing out-- I imagine as proof that the speaker means no harm. Even "I see you" though isn't the complete meaning but rather an abbreviated form of the phrase "I see you are still alive". And that explains why the most common response to "Sawubona" is "Yebo" ("yes"), since an affirmative response like "yes" to a somewhat meaningless expression like "Hello" would make little sense. And be kind of rude as well. That's a whole lot of baggage to be carried by one of the simplest and most common phrases one can encounter over there.

There's a scene in Yesterday when she's informed by a doctor ("who speaks proper Zulu") that her sickness is very, very serious. Now I would ask at this point "Am I going to die?", but not Yesterday-- Her question is "Am I going to stop living?"
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Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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Sawubona

Nice post. I take it you speak isiZulu?

Regards,

Paul
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Peter E.

Your book suggestion is now ordered. Wink

It's a start.

Thanks

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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Peter E.

Your reference to German sentence word order reminds me of my days trying to learn the declensions of German nouns and adjectives (simple in comparison of ancient Greek, I might add). I think it was Mark Twain who said that he would rather decline three German beers than one German adjective.

KIS
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Book arrived, paperback and very clearly set out. Very Happy

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Paul Bryant-Quinn


Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 551
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Keith Smith wrote:
Peter E.

Your reference to German sentence word order reminds me of my days trying to learn the declensions of German nouns and adjectives (simple in comparison of ancient Greek, I might add). I think it was Mark Twain who said that he would rather decline three German beers than one German adjective.

KIS


Keith

You must have heard the old one about a businessman who goes into negotiations with a German company. The company sends over a representative who speaks no English. As the businessman speaks no German, he hires an interpreter. The conference goes smoothly enough, until the interpreter stops as the German is still speaking.

The businessman gets impatient, and asks the interpreter, "Why aren't you translating?"

The interpreter answers, "I'm waiting for the verb."
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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I hadn't heard it, but I'm glad I have now. Sadly, most of my "homies" would still be waiting for the punchline long after the joke was finished.

All this talk of Xhosa and Zulu clicks got me to thinking of that amusing song "Qongqothwane" made popular by the late Mama Africa herself, Myriam Mikeba. Mercifully, the tune is better known as "The Click Song". Her mother was Swazi and her father was Xhosa, but I imagine she rarely thought of herself as anything but South African, in spite of her status as something of a pariah in that country during most of her lifetime. The quality of the recording is poor, but her introduction alone (and her pronunciation of the word "Xhosa") makes it worth visiting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mwh9z58iAU

"How do you make that noise?"
"That's not a noise, that's my language!"
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Peter

His answer should have been 'I'm waiting for the rest of the verb'. (From one pedant to another.) Very Happy
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Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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