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a.j
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The question has been should there be a remake of Zulu, which I am undecided upon, it will not beat the original in quality, but may slightly beat it in facts.
Anyway does anyone think that there should be a remake of Zulu Dawn? Personally I think YES. After reading How Can Man Die Better by Mike Snook I realised how many facts have missed out. I also think a new film would highlight the important actions of the battle such as H Company�s last stand and Younghusbands charge. I do like Zulu Dawn it does highlight a few things and shows some scenes well such as Melvill and Coghill�s attempt to save the Queen's colour. But I think a revised film of the battle of Isandlwana has to be made! |
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Tom516
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I don't see why you won't have BOTH in the movie - Alamo had the Alamo PLUS San Antonio, Pearl Harbor had Pearl Harbor PLUS the Doolittle Raid... gotta have the victory to balance off the defeat!
Tom |
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Coll
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To concentrate on the battle at Isandlwana alone, would give the opportunity to cover a great deal of the incidents during it and also more of the participants who played major roles in the engagement.
'Zulu Dawn' I like very much, but it covered events from the Ultimatum right up to the battle itself and Chelmsford's return to the camp. However, 'Zulu' involved the audience very quickly into the preparations for the forthcoming battle at Rorke's Drift, the previous battle (Isandlwana) covered in the letter read by the excellent Richard Burton at the start, with an image of the devastated camp. A new film about Isandlwana (I think) should start possibly around the time of the camp being formed and decisions being made amongst Chelmsford and his staff, as well as being 'introduced' to many of the officers and men. The first time we should see Col. Durnford could be when he received his orders to move to the camp, or as I prefer, his force arriving at the camp. Basically, I would like the film to begin the battle, like 'Zulu', very quickly, with the manouevres being made by the Zulus and British forces, taking place not long into the story. Guaranteed to immediately hold the attention of an audience. Remember watching 'Zulu' for the first time, fascinated by the landscapes and being introduced to the different men involved, then fairly rapidly, the quiet environment is thrust into action when knowledge of a large Zulu force approaching the post would soon arrive ? Gripping stuff. So then use this method for Isandlwana. Chelmsford is leaving, or has left, men are involved in various tasks around the camp, oxen grazing, Col. Durnford is known to be on his way to the camp, but then add the gradual build up of tension - the sightings of the Zulus on the ridge, etc., until events progress on to their discovery in the valley. By the end of this film, again like 'Zulu', we'd be as exhausted as the men fighting for their lives on the big screen. Only taking long enough to recover, before going to watch it again ! Coll |
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Sawubona
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Hmmm,
ZULU has got to be the slowest paced movie I've ever seen, with ZULU DAWN running right up there close behind it! In retospect, that was a lot of its (their) appeal and the same reason that neither could work today. Slow build ups just don't cut it anymore, at least over here. A case in point is THE ALAMO. Witness how the movie begins with a 'hook" (sorry) of the aftermath and then the extended flashback that's the meat of the story. A ZULU remake would have to start with something like a long pan with interspersed close-ups of the mangled bodies in front of the mealie bags and then cut back to include the exhausted and somewhat horror stricken surviving defenders. And lots of up close and personal shots of the living and the dead, mind you, all of who have features that when we see them it flashbacks are instantly identifiable! The viewing public needs a lot of instant gratification to keep their attention nowadays! What are the demographics of movie goers in 2006, I ask? Just what's needed to drag them away from an internet game where one can "respawn" or "resort to a saved game" when one's character gets offed? Humanity possibly? Constant reminders that pixels on a monitor aren't really alive but that some men (and women) who lived in and made history were? |
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Dawn
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Right, dare I jump in?
I think the reason we find Zulu Dawn dissatisfying is because it tries to deal with so many characters acting out so many different parts of the battle so much so that we, as the audience, can't connect with anything. As writers of fiction we are taught first invent the character, then invent the conflict. Readers cannot emphathise with a character who has no axe to grind or hill to climb. In Zulu we have characters - Bromhead and Chard, who have conflict: strengthening defences against an unseen and unknown enemy who has just wiped out a whole British camp. Will they succeed? The fact that they do gives us satisfation. Zulu Dawn on the other hand, give us too many characters: Vereker, Durnford, Chelmsford and Sgt and Pt Williams, the quarter master, boy Pullen etc etc and tries to weave them together with the background on Isandlwana to make the film work. It doesn't. The fact that they don't succeed in holding off the Zulu hordes shouldn't be what makes the story fail, as some stories do not have happy endings, yet they still leave us satisfied. An example perhaps is the movie 'Titanic' (do I hear a collective groan?). We know the ship is going to sink and that many are going to die and yet that story is the backdrop to the story of Jack and Rose and this is where the real story is. Yes, Jack dies but in doing so, he releases Rose from her bonds (cue violins here!) We have satisfaction in knowing he didn't die in vein. In a remake of Zulu or Zulu Dawn, this is what we need. And I don't mean a love story between a soldier and the missionary's daughter (who was not there anyway) but perhaps a gritty story on the real soldiers who fought. To quote Sheldon's book, something "with guts behind it." Now that I've stirred up that particular hornets nest, are there any takers? Dawn |
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Coll
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Dawn
The battle scene in 'Zulu Dawn' was about 25-30 minutes long, not really enough time lapse to cover what needs to be shown to make sense of the engagement. To start the film from the early hours of the 22nd, in a movie possibly 1 hour 30 mins - 2hrs in length, gives a bit more room for specific links to join the incidents together. How many 24th officers were represented in the original film ? The audience wouldn't need every participant's life story, but enough information about their character - name, unit, rank, etc., so when we see the actor portraying them in the battle, we know what unit or event is being covered. More main characters are needed, not less. Officers involved in this engagement are roles which would demonstrate where each incident was taking place, Imperial and Colonial. In 'Zulu Dawn' we didn't really know what 24th companies we were observing, or clear ideas of where they were placed. To see images of the officers (actors portraying them) amongst each group, we can then understand where they are located. The same goes for other participants, units and specific incidents - Capt. Shepstone, Lt. Scott, Natal Carbineers, etc. Fugitives' Trail also could do with being covered in greater detail, as in 'Zulu Dawn' we don't really see the struggle to get away from the battlefield and the endless pursuit by the zulus. So ..... start the battle quickly (at least the British and Zulu manouvres)...introduce more participants to the audience.... give a clearer idea about the location of units.....show more of the known incidents ...... choreograph fight scenes with more realism. Especially more attention to detail - uniforms, weapons, etc., as I think some of these aspects annoy us all greatly in the film. May seem a lot to ask, but it is possible if put into development by a film company that understands the need for such requirements. Although I'm always of the hope that a new film about Isandlwana will be made in the near future, I don't think it will happen any time soon. However, I'll focus my attention on something that is being developed - Zulu Total War - which is a very interesting project actually in progress. I'm hoping there may be a Col. Durnford figure included in the game. Any chance of that ZTW Team ? Coll |
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| Durnford definite! | |
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Tom516
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Of course! He's way too important a figure to miss. Right now for our first release (Fugitives' Drift) I'm getting info on as many figures and characters who were there when the line broke and I really would like to include Durnford - I already have the Natal Carbineers texture ready so it's pretty much a done deal.
thanks very much for the support! By the way, Dawn's pretty much spot on with her assessment - that's why you get movies like Titanic w/c do work (the history is just a backdrop and we are focusing on Jack and Rose alone) and Zulu (here's its Bromhead and Chard's show) while there are others which don't like Zulu Dawn or A Bridge Too Far or Longest Day (I love A Bridge Too Far but I know it didn't do well commercially). However, Dickie Attenborough had a theory about that - he used very famous personalities for that show because if they couldn't follow the historical story at least they could follow the stars. They just keep tabs on Robert Redford at this bridge while James Caan is at the other bridge and Anthony Hopkins is at the last bridge while Sean Connery is stuck in the Dutch cellar with a tank up front. As for me, I'd really like to see them do it Band of Brothers style sort of, from the Point of View of B company. You don't need to bring in Pulleine, Vereker, etc. just a number of key individuals - I'd recommend Durnford (By the way, the Durnford article here would make a great backstory!), Cetshwayo (just to see the political side) and an aged veteran soldier of the uThulwana to get the point of view 'from the other side'. You don't need to bring in the others because they're there, you'll run into them anyway along the way, Pulleine and Glyn being the bosses (like Col.Sink in Band of Bros you don't really see him too often), Melvill and Coghill attached to HQ so they're there, Chard is RE so he should run into Durnford a couple of times. But stick to perhaps Gonny Bromhead, Boy Bourne and the rest of the blokes of B company who can't follow orders 'cause "Mr.Flamin' Brom'ead can't flamin' 'ear 'em on the parade ground". Classic story, misfits become the heroes, like the Dirty Dozen. Another thing Dawn mentioned is focusing on the objective or problem of the story. Thats why you have a lot of devices like starting in medias res (in the middle of things) or even at the end and having the entire thing as a flashback - like Sunset Boulevard, Citizen Kane or Titanic. Perhaps you could start at Ulundi - after the slaughter. Maybe have Cetshwayo narrate it like Joe Gillis in Sunset Boulevard, after his capture, looking back at the events that led to it - the climactic scene would be Cetshwayo meeting B Company somewhere along the way and they would salute him or he would salute them or something to that effect. I'm just thinking out loud here... but yeah, movies have to have a single strong motivating objective something that, despite all the subplots, the protagonist and antagonist move inexorably toward. Just my two cents, |
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_________________ Tom "Harlechman" Zulu Total War Team, a Rome TW: BI mod.
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Coll
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Tom
Excellent news. I can't tell you how pleased I am about Col. Durnford's inclusion in a scenario. You may already have illustrations of his uniform, but there are 2 titles where colour plates show the full uniform, as well as highlighting the use of his patrol jacket as a makeshift sling/support for his injured left arm. Zulu : Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift 22-23 January 1879. Knight, I. (the above book contains a large (A4) colour plate) Elite Series No.32 : British Forces in Zululand 1879. (this book shows various scenes, including one of Col. Durnford and individuals from different units involved in his last stand) Coll |
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Dawn
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Tom
Yes, you've got the right idea. We don't need to follow Chelmsford, Pulleine et al because you would see them from the viewpoint of the main character we are following, who could be just a common soldier. In writing class we studied the plot of Titanic as an example of story plotting as, whether book or film, most follow the same path. Most start with the character/s and the way their life is at the moment. Then comes the an event that changes the normal course of their lives. When asked what this was in Titanic, most of the class said: when the ship hit the iceberg. Wrong. It was when Jack stopped Rose from jumping off the stern of the ship. With this realisation, you then know that the story is not about the doomed ship but about Jack and Rose. Similiarly, a remake of any of the films of Isandlwana or Rorke's Drift needs to be about the people, not the events. The events happen to the people, not the other way around. Funnily enough, I've always thought Durnford would be an excellent vehicle for this (I can hear Coll cheering from here!). Through his eyes, we get to see Rorke's Drift, Chard, Pulleine, the camp, the advance of the Zulus etc etc. What would really top if off is for the story line to have Durnford making a stand on the nek so that some young soldier, who would otherwise die, being ordered away so that his life is spared (A bit of poetic licence here!) And thereby making the statement that Durnfords death was not in vein. As Tom said, the misft becoming the hero. (I see that Coll has just swooped away. Anyone got any smelling salts?) And no, this is not the plot of my particular book, but just a bit of day dreaming and so that you can see that a remake does not have to be a blow by blow reinterpretation of what has gone before. A remake would have to be a bit more sophisticated than what was done in the 60's and 70's. The audience, for a start, would expect more. And that's my five cents worth (up from two cents, but that's inflation for you!) Dawn |
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Sawubona
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Hmmm... I"m looking for a good character to follow-- one whose actions are virtually unknown, so I can have him do or say just about anything that would make a good story. I can even make up his first name as long as the initial is correct and I can spell his last name either of two ways and only offend half of the movie-goers-in-the-know with my choice. But do I put him at Isandalwana or Rorke's Drift? Why not both? Enter stage right that character we all know so well: Lt. Addendorff (or Addendorf)!
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Tom516
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I think many of us are very much in love with the material as we rightly should be but we are too close to it that we want to include everything and share that with everyone. The thing is that doesn't make for a coherent story. At most many things can be telescoped into one character or series of events and these characters need not even be major - many can even be walk on parts to add colour to the story. Thats the big error of movies like Longest Day - I've talked to 'normal' people about it and even 'warfreaks' didn't like it because it was confusing to the extreme. And it's even worse with age - you have actors who WERE famous then like Peter Lawford or Curt Jurgens and a few names still remembered like Sean Connery (in a terribly small role!), Robert Mitchum and Richard Burton but the rest are like who are those? This is where the big name actor theory falls flat. I like Titanic as a model of how to write and cast a historic movie - you still get folks like EJ Smith, Ismay, Thomas Andrews and the whole historic cast but at best they are secondary characters who only appear IN RELATION TO the leads and otherwise they are minor characters who appear once or twice like the radiomen, Guggenheim and the Macys owners.
I think you can safely have Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift in there with B Company as your main thread and Durnford as a secondary thread - he's your 'cool secondary character' that all movies gotta have, the stereotypical man of the land who is loved by the natives, sort of like Michael Douglas in Ghost and the Darkness. Since he dies at Isandhlwana anyway, half way into the picture I would say, he can be developed up to then without worrying about the 'extra weight'. While Adendorff was at both battles and in Zulu he is a 'cool character' he doesn't really have as much historic 'weight' as a character like Durnford. I'm not sure if he stayed (as in Zulu) or ran though I heard that 'most historians agree that he stayed'. Then again, he could be the narrator - again the model is Ghost and the Darkness' African narrator. Of course you could invent a 'Jack and Rose' kind of fictional character - but my argument for this particular case is why would you want to when you already have so many interesting colourful characters? Cheers! |
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_________________ Tom "Harlechman" Zulu Total War Team, a Rome TW: BI mod.
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Dawn
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Most historical sources place Adendorf at Rorke's Drift during the battle.
I think most people are disparaging of Adendorf as he left Isandlwana early in the piece and this has been transposed (in error) to Rorke's Drift. I would imagine it was a case of self preservation. I don't know whether he was under anyone's command and therefore felt no obligation to stay. Dawn |
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Johnny_H
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Well I have been reading allot here, let me introduce myself befor I speak.
I am a 23 year old kid ( probley got some older folkes then me on here ) with a huge interest in Military History. This thread seems as good as any to start my first post. I really cannot understand why some here would be dissatisfied with the film? It has been my favorite film since I was four years old, My father rented a VHS VCR ( those were the days eh ) and I had already been interested in soldiers etc, having a bunch of William Britains Toy soldiers ( plastic Scots guards if i recall correctly ). Needless to say this movie is my favorite film of all time. I can recite it word for word, I have had lead soldiers of similar looks ( william britains toy soldiers worcestershire regiment and 17th Lancers which I still have with boxes today  )
This movie was so impressionable on me that I even got a bag of plastic "Cowboys and Indians" so I could use the Indians as Zulus and a lone cowboy as Ardendof, yeah I'm a painfully obvious dork of a child but that is how enthusiastic I was about the movie. Still am, so a remake? is out of the question especially since that god awfull Four Feathers waste of energy. If done right it could be maginificent, I still don't see though how it can possibly compare. I have kind of let the Anglo Zulu war go to the back burner as the last few years I have read nothing but WWII books, on the Eastern and Western front. Only recently did I find that there is a TON of reading material on this conflict and I am devouring it 
Sorry if this is off topic fellas, if this can be moved to a "Introductions thread" then sure g'head. here is some info Name : John H Country : Canada Halifax Nova Scotia Age : 23 Currently Reading : Across the Buffalo : The Zulu war of 1879 - Adrian Greaves Last read : The Curling Letters of the Zulu war - Adrian greaves and Brian Best. thx for reading I hope to be more active on this forum  |
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_________________ "It looks, er, jolly simple doesn't it? (Bromhead to Adendorff) Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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Dawn
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Johnny
Welcome aboard By the way, which movie are you talking about; Zulu or Zulu Dawn? I think Zulu is a good movie and needs no remake, actually. It's stood the test of time and is a classic. Zulu Dawn is the one that needs a remake, and told completely differently. Dawn |
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Johnny_H
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I was reffering to Zulu, there are two threads with the same suggestion for both films, I just got confused as to which thread I was in  |
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_________________ "It looks, er, jolly simple doesn't it? (Bromhead to Adendorff) Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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 | Remake Zulu Dawn?? | |
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