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Captain Herbert Williams
Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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I was wondering what was known about Captain Williams who was in command of C company of 2/24th. I have a passing interest which I won't go into here.

On 22 January 1879 he was actually Lieutenant Williams, a rank he had held for 11 years. On 23 January he was made Captain. At that time he would have been 34, which I thought was quite old for a lieutenant. Others seem to have gained their ranks (is that the right word?) quite quickly in comparison.

I just wondered, what factors would influence an officer's rise, or lack of? I guess, as in any job, there has to be vacancy first.

I know this man is a little obscure in terms of the battle of Isandlwana (he was out with Chelmsford on that day) but I wondered if there was anything more that anyone could tell me about him?

Dawn
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seniority?
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Perhaps it was a battlefield promotion for some act of courage or maybe it might have had something to do with the casualties the 24th suffered that day? Filling up the gaps with the next in line?

just a thought,

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Tom "Harlechman"
Zulu Total War Team,
a Rome TW: BI mod.
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Yes, I sort of guessed as much. I would imagine there was a lot of shuffling around on the 23rd January. Does anyone know whether he remained in command of C company after he was promoted?

Dawn
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diagralex


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 208
Location: Broomfield, Essex
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Dawn

It was not unusual for officers to remain as a Lieutenant for many years.
Prior to 1871 promotion was according to the ability to purchase. This system meant that many deserving and highly capable officers who could not afford to purchase the next step up, were passed over by those who could. A well connected family could pay for rapid promotion through the lower ranks, even though that officer may not have been the best candidate.
John Chard can be used as a good example to show the age of a lieutenant. He passed out of Royal Military Academy at the age of 21 and still held the same rank in 1879 when aged 32.
Promotion after 1871 was based on selection and examination. The more senior officers had their commissions purchased by the Government, allowing them to retire and free the way for younger men to take their place.
Battlefield promotions still happened as the ranks of the deceased were replaced by the remaining officers. It was not unusual for young subalterns to make a toast before a campaign of a bloody war and a pestilant season. Either way they could hope for a rise in rank if they survived.

Graham
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Lt and Adjutant Teignmouth Melvill was aged 37 at the time of Isandlwana - and was commissioned in 1865 - no slouch he - having been to Cambridge and obtained a MA degree.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Dawn, here's an example of a promotion path,

of 'trumpeter' John Brown (Capt and Paymaster 17th Lancers at AZW)

born; 28th March, 1834

Enroled at age 14yrs as a 'boy' bandsman.
Served 'in the ranks' of the 17th Lancers for 14yrs 285 days
(during 4yrs and 360 days he was 'under age'.)

Cornet, and Adjutant 17th Lancers 23 Mar 1867;
Lieutenant 30 Oct 1869;
Captain 12 Feb 1879;
Appointed Paymaster 17th Lancers 18 Feb 1879;
(Hon) Major, Paymaster 79th Cameron Highlanders 18 Feb 1884;
Staff Paymaster 27 Mar 1889;
Retired (Hon) Lt.-Colonel 28 Mar 1894.

Campaign Medals;

Crimea British 3 clasps and Turkish
Indian Mutiny 1858-59
Zulu War 1879
Egypt British 1884-85 'Nile' clasp, and Khedive's star

As Trumpeter in the 17th Lancers, he took part in the 'Charge of The Light Brigade' at Balaclava. (25th October, 1854)
He was severely wounded at Tchernaya, and at the siege of Sebastopol

died; 26th February, 1905
buried Dublin Ireland.
His grave is shown on 'Keynsham Light Horse' site.
cheers,
Sean
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Lieutenant Herbert Michael Williams was promoted in the normal course of events and the date was quite conicidental. The announcement was in the following words:

"Lieut. Herbert Michael Williams [promoted to captain], vice J.M.G. Tongue, promoted [to major]. Dated 23 January 1879." (Unnumbered General Order dated 20th May 1879, Natal Witness 22nd May 1879.)

William's earlier promotion path was: ensign, 5th July 1864, lieutenant, 28 October 1868. This did not differ greatly from other lieutenants in the 24th: Melvill, Dec. 1868; Bennett, May 1869; Porteous, Oct. 1869; Pope, Feb 1871; Bromhead, Oct 1871 etc.

KIS
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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PS

I should have added that Melvill, Bennett, Porteous and Pope all purchased their lieutenant's commission. Neither Williams nor Bromhead did.

KIS
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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I thought the purchasing of commissions had been abolished with the army reforms.

However, it could explain why some officers seemed to progress faster than others.

A bit unfair, I'd say?

Dawn
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Dawn

They were. Clearly Melvill, Bennett & Porteous secured their purchase before this aspect of Cardwell's measures went through, 1871 being the year of abolition. It looks as if Pope got through by the skin of his teeth but Bromhead appears to have missed by a whisker.

Peter
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Captain Herbert Williams
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