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Concerning Zulu Dawn
Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia
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The Regiment of Lancers in the movie? or at Islandlwana for that matter, which unit was it? I didn't think it was the Duke of Cambriges own 17th Lancers cause if I'm not mistaken they had Blue tunics with white facings, and these lancers have blue tunics with Red Facings?

Any info on this?
Or am i just reading too much into this?
Possible movie mistake even...

thanks

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GlennWade


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Swansea
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Hi Johnny

They are supposed to be the 17th Lancers, despite the fact that they did not arrive in SA until May 1879, a few months early methinks! The red facings are simply a traditional Hollywood historical error. Strange that the Lancers in 'Zulu' repeat the mistake. Somebody once suggested that the confusion might have stemmed from the fact that Russel, commander of the Mounted Infantry, was of the 21st Lancers and as this regiment had red facings, the costume designers went for that look, so........make of that what you will Confused

Cheers

Glenn
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Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia
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GlennWade wrote:
Hi Johnny

They are supposed to be the 17th Lancers, despite the fact that they did not arrive in SA until May 1879, a few months early methinks! The red facings are simply a traditional Hollywood historical error. Strange that the Lancers in 'Zulu' repeat the mistake. Somebody once suggested that the confusion might have stemmed from the fact that Russel, commander of the Mounted Infantry, was of the 21st Lancers and as this regiment had red facings, the costume designers went for that look, so........make of that what you will Confused

Cheers

Glenn



I also noticed it in Zulu? and I figured that maybe there was just another group of lancers there? perhaps the 21st. But as I read about the campiegn I found out that the 17th didn't show up untill as you said 5months after the first invasion.

I wonder why they Bu*gerd it up in two movies though? seems odd that they did in two films. I love both movies, but the 17th have a pretty distinct uniform, its a real accomplishment to mess that up.

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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Glenn,

J.C. Russell was in the 12th (Prince of Wales' Royal) Lancers, rather than the 21st, who were still hussars in 1879. They did not become lancers until 1897, just before their famous charge at Omdurman in 1898. Their facing colour as lancers was 'French Grey'.

The facings of the 12th Lancers were scarlet, which obviously follows the lancers in both Zulu & Zulu Dawn.

The first wing of the 17th Lancers arrived in Natal on 6th April 1879, the second on 11th April 1879, rather than May. The movies are not the only ones to include lancers too soon, look at Alphonse de Neuville's 'The Last Sleep of the Brave'. Wilsone Black has a 17th Lancers escort.

By-the-way there will be a re-enactment of the 17th Lancers' journey from Durban to Ulundi starting next month by The Troop, hopefully with some TV coverage.

John Y.
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Johnny

Not sure that they b*ggered it up, as such, as that infers that a mistake was made. I would have thought those who were responsible simply made a conscious decision. In other words: "You know there were no Lancers in the invasion force, I know there were no Lancers either, anyone who knows anything about the AZW also knows there were none. In fact there was no British cavalry anywhere near Zululand, if we ignore the mounted infantry and colonial volunteers - but who cares? We're only making a film here, what do details like that matter? We're here to entertain."

"Absolutely agree! Uniforms? Details? What does it matter? I'll just get the costume department to knock up something colourful, make them look a bit military, perhaps rather old fashioned (Victorian perhaps?) to fill the bill sufficiently, and we're away. And anyway, we're after the American market here, so it matters not a jot. They won't have the faintest clue & we'll get away with murder. Lancers? Hussars? Black Watch? Royal Marines? Anything will do; we won't start getting fussy over uniforms which are nothing like correct or worry about including the wrong regiments just because they weren't there."

Does anyone seriously doubt that a conversation (or conversations) of this sort did not take place throughout the production stage, and plenty of similar ones to discuss the plot, the war's origins, the outbreak of war, the relations between Zulu & Natal, the British military force, the personalities and, of course, the conflict itself, which resemble the Battle of Hastings as much as it does the Battle of Isandlwana? How else did they come up with such a dog's dinner of a film, which is utterly laughable from beginning to end?

Recently I finally forced myself to watch it all through in one go - and marvelled that anyone could bring themselves to struggle through a second time. Its one saving grace is the humour (unintended I'm told) that we experience from watching (& listening - ugh!) to the "token Yank" blundering through the film like a bull in a china shop with a strangulated delivery intended to resemble an Irish navvy while playing and English (albeit Ireland-born) gentleman of the 19th century.


The Lancers' uniforms - and the fact they included any cavalry in the film - is the last of the film's problems, I'd have thought ...

Peter
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GlennWade


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Swansea
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Hi John

I would retreat under a stone in shame and become a hermit if I did not have the rather pressing excuse of my A Levels on my back and having not read any AZW material proper since the Summer Embarassed

Johnny

Sorry about the mangled info but you could see where I was coming from

Maybe next time I should dig out some files or books before posting Rolling Eyes

Glenn
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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And...I hope he will forgive me for this...Sean Sweeney has an ancestor who was with the 17th Lancers who were with the second invasion, so maybe I could persuade him to add a few details. His ancestor is John Brown, captain with the Lancers, and, I believe present at the charge of the light brigade in the Crimea. I think the full history is on the thread "Lt Herbert Williams" for anyone interested.

Nothing to do with uniforms though. Unless Sean has a picture.

Dawn
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Sorry, no colour photos from that era.

We have an old faded pic of John Brown floating around somewhere.

1879 Facings/piping/gloves/belt/trouser-stripe/helmet were white, on blue.

I don't know if they carried carbines on their 'Ulundi' charge.

I imagine these would have had slings attached, and possibly also white ?

All looks pretty, but a pain in the butt to keep clean and fresh.

I know, I've 'whitened' and 'blanco'ed' enough webbing, (and 'tackies'), to keep me in pleasant memories.

There are plenty of web-sites which show the uniforms of different era.

1855
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/17thdress.html

1879
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/collection/17thlancers1879.htm

1896
http://www.armynavyairforce.co.uk/17th_lancers.htm

1900
http://members.dca.net/fbl/p17lr.html

cheers,
Sean
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diagralex


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 208
Location: Broomfield, Essex
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Sean

The 17th Lancers carried carbines throughout the entire Zulu campaign.
They were carried in a leather bucket on the off side of the saddle. Evidence of their use was seen at the affair of the Upoko river, where the regiment was dismounted and exchanged rifle fire with the Zulus.

Graham
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Thanks Graham,

I seem to remember seeing images of mounted troops with rifles slung across their backs. Probably colonials. I don't know if the regular units who had some of their number converted to 'mounted' had slings or saddle boots. You might know.

Also as far as the film images, fairly unique to the 17th was their double white trouser-stripe, which, not having seen the film, I assume they could easily screw up as well, and the fact that the large white plastron on the front of their tunic was folded and buttoned back, when they were in action.

Makes a nice target to aim at, I guess !!!

and then you bleed all over your freshly 'whitened' front.

cheers,
Sean
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messing things up
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Ah, I'm really longing to see Zulu Dawn again - haven't seen it in ten years I think (at least it seems that long) particularly having finished film school and watched a few other 'empire' films. One other instance of messing things up is the Tony Richardson Charge of the Light Brigade which fails horribly when compared to its Errol Flynn predecessor. They got the uniforms wrong there too (17th Lancers is wearing CHERRY RED BREECHES - shock and horror!) I mean if they're going to make it 'historic' unlike the first film which invented the whole Surat Khan revenge plot to get the fictive lancer regiment to charge at Balaclava why not go the whole hog? Then again, maybe it's a case of not letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

Never trust Hollywood to get it right - particularly in regard to uniforms!!

Cheers,

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diagralex


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 208
Location: Broomfield, Essex
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Sean

The 17th always had the white side of the plastron buttoned back when in action. This meant that the whole tunic was dark blue. As you say, the large white patch would have been a perfect target, which the Lancers realised. The only white showing was their stable belt and leg stripes.
With regards to the mounted infantry, if they were using the regulation universal wood arch saddle of 1856, then it would have been issued with a full length carbine boot. However, some of the units were formed in a hurry and may not have been issued with the regulation saddle. Mounted infantry carried their ammunition in bandoliers over their shoulder
The Colonial cavalry seemed to carry their carbines as the fancy took them. Some did use a short version of a carbine boot while the vast majority seemed to just sling their carbines over their shoulder.

Graham
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Concerning Zulu Dawn
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