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The da Vinci code and the Anglo-Zulu War
Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Now I have your attention, don't I?

I was watching the news stories on the latest court action against the author of the da Vinci code where authors of an earlier book are sueing him for stealing their idea.

Obviously as a writer the thought that this court case might be won scares me. Whereto from there one wonders?

Would I have to ask Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill if I can use their argument that the Zulu attack on 22 January was planned? Do I have to ask Mike Snook if I can use his theories on Pulleine's movements during the attack? Would I have to pay them royalties?

It has always been my belief that authors of fiction take the facts and mould a story around them. It is their imagination that creates the story, not the facts themselves doing the creating.

Although maybe a little off the subject, but then again not, I was wondering what others thought of this legal action and of its possible implications.

Perhaps I should run a poll but I'm not quite sure how to set it up.

Dawn
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Dawn

Surely the difference is that Messrs Snook, Lock & Quantrill etc are involved with non-fiction (we hope!) whereas the Da Vinci Code and other similar stories are, of course, fiction. There is no blurring of the picture or grey area there.

Regardless of the eventual findings of the case (i.e., depending on whether the respective stories are that close or whether the idea & plot really was pinched) the story or plot in a novel is crucial and therefore the novelist is protected by law (even if the plot is as far-fetched as the authors chose to make these ones!).

Of course, this doesn't prevent historians from having spats (legal or otherwise) with each other, especially over ideas and the discovery of sources, although not many dig a hole for themselves as deep as the one Irving seems to have dug for himself!

Peter
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diagralex


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 208
Location: Broomfield, Essex
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The first point is that you must draw the line between fiction and non fiction.
Military history is written after first reading numerous and previously written reports. It is up to the writer how they first form an opinion and then interpret those facts into a book. This can be to just recite again the previously quoted information or embellish those facts. Either way the book produced can only be a variation of previous writers thoughts and ideas brought together.
This has to be a fact as we were usually not present when the subject matter of the book occured.

It is impossible to claim copyright over historical facts. Copyright could only be infringed if large portions of a chapter or written work was " lifted" from one source and then passed of as new.
"New" interpretations of events will always occur and the reader will naturally agree or disagree with the author. But remember that someone would have undoubtably expressed a similar opinion many years ago.

As to fiction, it is always to two same variations of old stories :-
1) Boy meets girl. they fall in love and live happily ever after.
2) Hero and Villain, Hero beats Villain, finally triumphs over adversity.

There is nothing new in literature but each writer hopes that they will have written something which will prove to be popular, successful and financially rewarding.

Graham
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Dawn

Touch my stuff and I'll sue for everything you have!!

Only joking. Laughing

It's not the good guys you have to worry about!

Regards as ever,

Mike

PS. Drop me a private line on this if you are in any doubt. I understand the point you are making - Holy B and Holy G, purportedly a history book containing original research, and the DV Code, a work of fiction. What you are getting at is, does this current case establish some new legal precedent? That right?
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Rich
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Just an fyi...Mr. Brown of the Da Vinci code sure looks like he is a target! He had been hauled into court in 2005 on other previous copyright infringement cases. What happened? Well he won them. The books in question were "Daughter of God" and "The Da Vinci Legacy" by Lewis Perdue. Copyright infringement appears to be very difficult to prove.
Ideas have to be DIRECTLY copied. It would seem mr. Brown has shown he has not directly copied ideas used in his books. On another note, these cases really identify how far can authors go in using other people's work and research for background or as an influence in their work.
Setting up a poll...
Peter
Site Admin

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Hertford, UK
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Hi Dawn,

To set up a poll, when you create a topic, down the bottom you'll see a section on adding a poll to your topic..

You need to fill out:

Poll question
Poll option
Run poll for


The poll option bit is the "answers to the poll" part, and it's as simple as that! Smile

Peter
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Mike

Yes, you're right. It's the legal precedent I'm worried about.

A lot of works of fiction draw from works of non-fiction and this court case seems to want to blur the lines a little.

One wonders if they would have been so willing to sue if The da Vinci Code was not the huge bestseller that it is?

By the way, I don't mention Pulleine as my character would not have seen him much. I was using it as an example. But I do use a lot of what it is you say about G company.

So I hope you won't sue me... Wink

Dawn
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Mike Snook


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 130
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Dawn

Go on ahead.

Regards

Mike
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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Hi Mike, for my part you can rest easy. I promise not to cop any of your Durnford conclusions! (Still waiting on your new book.)

Best

Michael
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Sorry to be on the other side, but I wasn't halfway through the second chapter of The Da Vinci Code before I said to myself, "Self, jeezum this book is nothing more than a shameless plagerism of Holy Blood, Holy Grail and it isn't even near as well written". It probably isn't by legal definition plagerism, but it's not right that The Da Vinci Code's author should so blithely climb the ladder of success by exploiting the fairly exhaustive work of others with only incidental credit given. And he should never have used the fictional (?) name "Saunier" if he wanted to steer clear of the courts.
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Who was to know that The da Vinci Code was going to be such a bestseller? So did Dan Brown know he was going to be climbing the ladder of success on the back of authors who had gone before him? And when does fact become fiction, and alternatively, fiction become fact?

If I say Ntshingwayo planned to attacked the camp at Islandlwana on 22 January, thereby following Ron and Peter's previously well-researched scenerio, I am then also going to accused of plagerism? (I know they won't because they are both good blokes, as is Mike. Also, if my book is a run-away bestseller, you'd need smelling salts to revive me!)

I haven't read Holy Blood, Holy Grail but from what I have heard it is definitely a non-fiction book. Dan Brown is definitely fiction. If this action is won, you'll get a lot of writers out there throwing away most of what they have written, afraid that they too, will get accused of plagerism.

By the way, if I get published, this forum is going to get an acknowledgement. I think that should just about cover it and I should be safe!! Laughing

Dawn
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Dawn,
I heartily agree that the line between fact and fiction is blurry at best in some books, and I actually touched on that point in my original draft of that last post but deleted it all. I've no doubt that the plagerism charge against Brown will never stick and it is a sad commentary that the plaintiffs can even get it into the courts. That being said, HBHG presents a plethora of facts, distills them and states a fairly original hypothesis explaining them. Brown runs with this hypothesis to produce a best seller and leaves 99% of his readers with the impression that his fictional work is the result of original and innovative thinking, which it surely isn't. Umberto Eco (sp?) in his monumental fictional work (did he ever write anything that wasn't monumental LOL) Foucault's Pendulum (sp?) takes the same premise as HBHG and weaves a much better story from the same hypothesis and I never for a moment considered him as "ripping off" the source. I see Eco's as simply being a more original work of fiction than Brown's, although both are unquestionably derivative of HBHG. Why do I feel that way? Gut feeling as much as anything and the fact that Brown just isn't a good enough writer to get away with it and Eco is.
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Dawn


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 610
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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I wonder what made The da Vinci code so popular and not the other. I've not read Eco, but I know that The da Vinci code was not Dan Brown's best written book. I enjoyed 'Angels and Demons' so much better but you don't hear anyone mention that.

It all comes down to art, I guess, and the lines will always be a bit fuzzy.

Thanks, guys, for all your input and especially to you, Mike, for allowing me to continue to use your research. Let's hope I can get it finished and out there so that others can be persuaded join the faith Wink

Dawn
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a copyright on ideas...
Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Sawubona wrote:
Dawn,
I heartily agree that the line between fact and fiction is blurry at best in some books, and I actually touched on that point in my original draft of that last post but deleted it all. I've no doubt that the plagerism charge against Brown will never stick and it is a sad commentary that the plaintiffs can even get it into the courts. That being said, HBHG presents a plethora of facts, distills them and states a fairly original hypothesis explaining them. Brown runs with this hypothesis to produce a best seller and leaves 99% of his readers with the impression that his fictional work is the result of original and innovative thinking, which it surely isn't. Umberto Eco (sp?) in his monumental fictional work (did he ever write anything that wasn't monumental LOL) Foucault's Pendulum (sp?) takes the same premise as HBHG and weaves a much better story from the same hypothesis and I never for a moment considered him as "ripping off" the source. I see Eco's as simply being a more original work of fiction than Brown's, although both are unquestionably derivative of HBHG. Why do I feel that way? Gut feeling as much as anything and the fact that Brown just isn't a good enough writer to get away with it and Eco is.


Like if I was to take Mike Snook's book and weave a fictional story around it BUT structure it in a similar or the same way, draw the same conclusions and in the same manner. And then present it as my own original work. Mike would be harrying me from the forums and into the courts. Same with any other writer I think. Another problem is he seems to be drawing quite heavily from this single source - like they became his researchers for him. Now (to use Mike as the example again) if you got a plethora of different sources and gave equal time to what each had to say and said it in your own unique way.

Ideas in general can't be copyrighted but the WAY ideas can be presented definitely can!

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Tom516


Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 136
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Dawn wrote:
I wonder what made The da Vinci code so popular and not the other. I've not read Eco, but I know that The da Vinci code was not Dan Brown's best written book. I enjoyed 'Angels and Demons' so much better but you don't hear anyone mention that.

It all comes down to art, I guess, and the lines will always be a bit fuzzy.

Thanks, guys, for all your input and especially to you, Mike, for allowing me to continue to use your research. Let's hope I can get it finished and out there so that others can be persuaded join the faith Wink

Dawn


What DB did was very basic and not unlike what Ollie Stone did in JFK or Chris Guest does in his 'mockumentaries'. He took a 'factual' event or character and wove a story around it using the techniques of a novel to draw people in and hook them (and you can control the story better in fiction, keep what you need, discard what you don't) but add a lot of 'facts' so it has the ring of truth to it. It has a faux documentary feel which grabs people and makes them think hey, this could have really happened.

Who knows why it's successful - I do know that in this post-Christian era people are looking for things to replace or modify the old faiths and mysticism and supernatural interest is on the rise...

Maybe you can include some supernatural iSangoma stuff in your novel Dawn...

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a Rome TW: BI mod.
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The da Vinci code and the Anglo-Zulu War
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