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Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift rosters
RebelArtist1277


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 6
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Hello,

I am looking for rosters for the men who served at Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift. I know I can probably get the roster for the 24th Foot from Norman Holme's book, but I would like the men not apart of the 24th Foot (Royal Artillery, NNC officers and men etc.). I live in the US and it is impossible for me to get to the national archives in London. If anyone can help me with this please contact me!

Travis
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Travis,

As I have already suggested, please buy for starters:

1. Hill of the Sphinx by David Jackson

2. England's Sons by Julian Whybra

I know that you are really looking for biographical notes on everyone who took part in both engagements - but you have remember many people have put in hard work over many years and are not happy about releasing their hard won research for nothing or peanuts. It's a fact of life. I think you need to consider travelling - many on this site do.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Clueless


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 17
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Dear Martin,

I completely understand why individuals would surely NOT want to release their hard work for "peanuts" - completely understand that recognition should be given to such individuals and that they ought receive proper payment for their work...

I find it quite remarkable however (or am I being a tad ignorant here) that information can not be achieved short of travelling...SURELY there is a means of gaining information if appropriate costs are paid???

I would gather that the search for such material and the sending of such would cost time and money, but is there any way Travis would be able to gain access to such information short of travelling to the UK? - EVEN if he were prepared to pay?

As I said, I may be a tad ignorant here, but the cost of flights alone would surely go beyond payment for such information to be forwarded to an individual who was willing to pay PROPERLY for it? - You know better than I there...

I TOTALLY see why such information is not "free and accessible to all" - I would expect to pay in light of the fact that I am charged to view information from UK census...but if I AM willing to pay I get to see - SURELY there is a way if Travis is willing to pay besides travel???

...ISN'T THERE? Shocked

Emma
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Emma,

Firstly, when Travis contacted me - he indicated that he felt that 'The Noble 24th' was expensive at $50- this took nearly 35 years to compile. But he is looking for biographical notes on all the soldiers who took part in the actions at Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift - some 1,700 men. I am not aware of a single publication that covers this wide scope. Kris Wheatley has started covering some of the non-24th men at Rorke's Drift in her series 'Legacy'. There is much additional information in 'Rorke's Drift by those who were there' by Lee Stevenson and Alan Baynham Jones - but this is now out of print. There are individual researchers who can provide notes on soldiers not covered by the Noble 24th.

We are working on getting more information about the soldiers available on-line - however the Anglo-Zulu war is but one of a number of campaigns in which the 24th were involved in. The quality of data is also important and this takes time to achieve whilst also running a busy museum. The number will give you an indication of the size of the task - 2,500 during the AZW, 3,500 during the ABW and 80,000 during WW1. We are a long way from being confident that what we hold is of sufficient quality. This often means travelling and personally visiting cemeteries in South Africa and other parts of the world to double check the data.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Emma,

I should add that the projects undertaken by the National Archives - such as the 1901 Census and the WW1 campaign medal index cards - are national projects which involve mega-bucks - Plus �1M - which provide valuable resource to millions. The events of 22/23 January - it is not just converting an existing database to electronic format - the data on an individual soldier is in many places (some known; some unknown) which first has to collated as many of the service records have not survived. This is a serious undertaking for a small museum. And I would not be interested in non-24th soldiers.


Last edited by Martin Everett on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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Personally I wouldn't pay peanuts for the 1901 Census. Transcription errors everywhere. If I find anything on the 1881 Census which I purchased I always go to the County Records Office to check the fiche of the original document. My surname is Horlor. This has been transcribed as Horler/Harlor/Hawler/Horley/Hauler/Haller/Hallor and other variants. Most of the population in the 1801 Census onwards were illiterate and the census official made an "Educated" guess half the time. I have several 19th century Birth/death/marriage certificates and many are signed with an X.

My Great Grandfather Thomas James Mills fought in the first world war in the South Wales Borderers and I believe enlisted under this name. (Although his medals were stolen in a burglary five years ago).

However, his REAL name was Thomas James TURK and he joined under a nom de plume (Fielding overtones?). also stolen was a postcard from him which had the place-name Wipers...which I am fairly certain was Ypres.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Alekudemus,

Is your ggrandfather 25970?

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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Hi Martin.

Not sure of any army details. Unfortunately all his medals were stolen in the burglary. All I know for definite is that he was living in the Pontypool / Pontnewynydd area at the time of the war in 1914 and would have joined in the Pontypool recruiting office. (Having said that, I live in Pontypool and enlisted into the army in Manchester).

He worked in the saw mills (Hence his alias) and later in the lime kilns. He was shell-shocked on his return to Blighty. He also suffered the effects of gas.I have some more info but is on a different computer. His wife was named Florrie Mabel.

Thanks

Jon
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Clueless


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 17
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Dear Martin,

I have no doubt IN THE WORLD that the work you do is both time-taking and costly - NO DOUBT! I take my "hat off" to you for undertaking such massive projects - indeed I do. Hoping you didn't think I was being somewhat "challenging" there - was merely expressing my dis-belief that information could not be gained if an individual was willing to pay PROPERLY for it...

If Travis believes that "The Noble 24th" is expensive then may I suggest he joins a library!! NOUGHT is for free Travis - I myself have had to pay to view UK census 1901, 1971, 1961 and 1951 in attempting to trace my family tree...KIND of wholly KNOW the information I sought there was BY MILES less effort to compile than the information you seek...educated guess there, but SURE thinking I'm right...

Emma
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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To give you some idea as to the costs involved a Family History researcher would charge around $35 per hour. Personally I've spent days if not weeks searching old documents at County Records Offices and found...not much. I take my hat off to anyone with the time and patience to sift through old papers.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Emma,

We are willing to inpart the information we have on a particular soldier - but there is no magical card index in the regimental archives - all the information we have has been collated from many official and personal documents and in a lot of cases research on the ground in many countries. Many people have been kind and donated information in the support of the museum and its continued financial survival.

We normally request a donation of �10 for information on a particular soldier. However, Travis thought that 'The Noble 24th' was expensive, but this would only cover the soldiers of the 24th. He actually wanted notes on all soldiers involved in 22/23 January 1879 - which is a tall order, including those non-24th which I have have some notes but not the majority. Many of these are Colonial troops who are very difficult to research in the UK. At no time has Travis said why he really wants this information - just general interest? - for his own publication? - to pass on to a third party of publication? then you get into copyright issues.

As you know, the internet has made it so much easier to throw out a question - and see what you get back - hopefully for nothing. But in case of WW1 soldiers, some 7 million men served in the British Army - it is not an easy task respond.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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Dear Martin,
Have just sent you a PM. Hope that is OK.

Jon
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Clueless


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 17
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Dear Martin,
If what you say is true and Travis did indeed require information on "all and everybody" for nothing then I can but only assume that he is possibly far more "clueless" than my good self! ANY kind of research involves money if you are intent on finding answers - ANY kind...I suppose his notion was "worth a shot" but kind of wonder why ALL individuals were asked for as opposed to one/two possible "leads"...With an interest in my own personal family story of Rorke's Drift I would be less than interested in MOST individuals other than those I seek I would say...I find his request a tad odd...certainly not one I would associate with tracing family history would say...

Also, to add:

Dear Alek,
How HORRIBLE that such precious items be stolen like that!! Some people just have NO respect in the world...So sorry!

Emma
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Alekudemus

Glad to see you always go back to the original source! For the same reason, I agree with you that the publication online of the 1901 census was an enormous opportunity missed. Don't forget, though, that the microfilms of the actual returns are available in CROs and libraries nationwide in the same way that the previous censuses are.

I hasten to add that the reason for the huge number of transcription errors in the online version of the 1901 census is the result of the government agency's decision to farm out the transcription stage of the task. 78% was transcribed in Sri Lanka and 22% by "guests of HM" in the UK. It is a wonder that the mistakes are not more - sub-continental call centres and work experience schemes are all very well, but if the end result is such a mish-mash (to put it mildly) then what was the point? Have a look at the surname Ditto and you'll see it was strangely common in 1901! When the transcriptions came in from from Sri Lanka and were examined, only a 10% sample inspection was made but the results were horrifying - however, it was too late to do anything and the launch went ahead.

The 1881 project was organised by the Federation of Family History Societies and financed by the LDS Church (Mormons). The transcriptions were handled by the family history societies in each county, whose members (yours truly included) did the transcribing & checking from photocopied sheets (the m/film version was already out by then as this was in the mid-80s). There are errors in the 81 version but not nearly so many. At first it was produced on fiche by the LDS (who created the computerised index of the results) which was made available to suitable repositories but not to individual researchers, but about 5 years ago it went online - and is, unfortunately, relied on a little too readily by many, who fail to check the originals.

Peter
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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Hi Peter. I agree with all your comments. Luckily for me I am the same line as a member of the Guild of One Name Studies who helped me enormously.

It is exactly the same as the research of any historical documents...you get out what you put in. The people who transcribed the 1901 had no vested interest in the work. Plus the website was unavailable for ages after the official launch date I seem to remember. The governmenat had seriously underestimated the bandwidth necessary for the number of visitors to the site.

Gwent Family History Society has the fiche for the 1881, 1891 and 1901. I have my own CDs purchased from the LDS church for the 1881 and use the fiche for the 1891 and 1901. Newport library has the Fiche for Monmouthshire census from 1801.

I don't pay researchers as I did that once and three months later I found that the person they had presented as my GG grandfather had died aged 14 months. Hence I do my own research !

Unfortunately (Or fortunately) I am back to 1616 on my main line and more research would involve visiting Somerset to check primary sources.

I am currently trying to find a link between myself 610 Pte. George Morris who perished at Isandlwana. Haven't found anything yet though.

As regards internet research for family history. I would say don't do it. Another tool...but with a very blunt blade.

Thanks

Jon
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Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift rosters
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