rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - Could CGI Be Used To Improve Original 'Zulu Dawn' ?

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:04 pm

I'm only asking out of curiosity.

I'm thinking of the changes made to another film(s?) made in the 70s, when CGI was used to update and enhance certain scenes in movies.

This way aspects of the film can be improved or built on, such as adding to the amount of warriors in the Zulu army, the British units, the camp, possibly also using CGI to replace the mountain in 'Zulu Dawn' with Mt. Isandlwana. Basically, to use CGI to add scale and also visually enhance scenes lacking detail, etc., possibly even add new battle scenes to the ones on the film, as well as other areas.

Yes, I know, it would all be CGI, but what a thought.

It's a big ask, but I was just wondering if CGI could be used in this way, regarding 'Zulu Dawn' and the improving of/or adding to scenes.

Not that it would make it any better as a film, but visually more impressive.

Coll

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:17 pm

I'm opposed on principle to this sort of thing, no matter how 'effective' it may or may not be in 'improving' (to whom?!) the film, or any other film. It infuriates me that Spielberg, Lucas, et al, muck about with their movies for 'special editions' which effectively eradicate the originals. It's bad enough when filmmakers do it do their own work, but unconscionable when 'experts' think they know and can do better than the original artists. Can you imagine an art historian saying that the Mona Lisa would look a bit better with some eye shadow, a new hair-do and a bit less weight about the chin, and 'fixing' the picture with CGI to 'improve' it for modern audiences?

The whole complex question of 'restoration' is bound up with this; excessive interference is often justified on the grounds of 'improvement'. Worst example: a couple of film historians restoring Jean Vigo's 1934 film L'ATALANTE added some computer-generated imagery which they claimed helped Vigo achieve an effect he was allegedly trying to get, using technology he didn't have at the time but would have used if he did... I shudder at the thought. Vigo's true original (one of the masterpieces of European cinema) is now inaccessible.

BTW, Douglas Hickox (director of ZULU DAWN) is now deceased and can not speak for himself.

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:09 am

I disagree, Sheldon, but not without regret. I sincerely believe that actors (and actresses) won't have to go to make-up to film their scenes very soon because they won't actually be in them! CGI is why! Ali WILL fight Sullivan someday thanks to computers (blessings and curses on them), And John Wayne will always be young and not riddled with cancer in his forthcoming movies. Why? Because that's the way we want to remember him and that's the way Hollywood and the computer will give the public what they want. Casablanca with Kostner? No problem! Computers can just take out Bogart and put Kevin in his place and Kostner doesn't even have to change out of his skivvies to star in it. Oh, brave new world...

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:32 pm

Sheldon

I really enjoy watching 'Zulu Dawn' and was just enquiring if using CGI could be done and how it may enhance the movie in any way.

I have 9 copies of the film, as well as the screenplay and the soundtrack, and even with the flaws that I see in the film and others have pointed out, I'm content to watch it again and again. At the same time, I can also see the potential the film had.

If I may mis-quote a line from Brando in 'On The Waterfront' -

" It could have been something. It could have been a contender."

I'm a great defender (for want of a better word) of the film and only wish to pursue various aspects of the screenwriting, filmmaking, etc., as postings on a couple of other topics show.

Regarding 'Zulu Dawn', I feel, with the potential the film had, we could have been talking about more positive aspects of it, rather than mostly faults.

As 'Zulu Dawn' is the only film to cover this famous battle, and perhaps will be the only film ever to do so, I can't discuss any other versions, as it may be possible to do with recent mentions of several Alamo and Little Bighorn movies, where discussion can vary, depending on what version being debated and either praised or criticised.

I'd very much like to, but probably will never do, attempt to draft a screenplay based on the battle at Isandlwana, and am very interested in what techniques (screenwriting/film-making) will or won't work, to give an idea of how to structure scenes description wise.

I'm aware that a screenwriter mostly has to concentrate on scenes involving dialogue, expressions, etc., only putting in specific directions/description, if felt absolutely necessary, as the actual filming is done by someone else, with other, probably better, ideas.

However, I do like to visualise all aspects of the scenes myself, and this is where 'Zulu' and 'Zulu Dawn', are a great help, as they are based on the AZW battles which are of interest to me. Obviously, 'Zulu Dawn' in particular.

Coll

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:08 pm

Coll,

I don't object to your enjoying the movie or wishing it could be better - I do too (on both counts)! But if we're going to have an improvement, let it be another film entirely, not someone mucking about with this one. The issue is about respecting the integrity of historical artefacts, something which - in the age of CGI and computer 'enhancement' and multi-angle options on DVD, where we can recut the film to our hearts' content - is in danger of being lost, if it hasn't been already. Enjoy the products of the past but leave them as they are or restore them properly to their original state - don't try and bring them 'up to date' - that's what I say!

Best, Sheldon

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:28 pm

Sawubona wrote:

I disagree, Sheldon, but not without regret. I sincerely believe that actors (and actresses) won't have to go to make-up to film their scenes very soon because they won't actually be in them! CGI is why! .... Oh, brave new world...

And don't forget Sir Laurence Olivier's latest and posthumous acting credit - Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow!

It's already happening...

Tom516

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:30 pm

Sheldon Hall wrote:

Coll,

Enjoy the products of the past but leave them as they are or restore them properly to their original state - don't try and bring them 'up to date' - that's what I say!

Best, Sheldon

Another case in point - Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS - with Giorgio Moroder's music!! I got a copy of it too...

Tom516

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:21 pm

Regarding the 'Custer of the West' poster.

On the poster for this film, vertical version not the horizontal (panoramic) version, something did fascinate me about it, never having truly noticed it before. If you can imagine Custer (Robert Shaw) as Durnford, the 7th Cavalry as the N.C./N.M.P.and the indian as an attacking Zulu warrior and the chaos behind them (Zulu army attacking the camp?), look to the bottom left corner of the picture - Now tell me, does that not look like Mt. Isandlwana in the distance !

Not only is this an excellent poster, but a fantastic inspiration on how a poster should look for a new Isandlwana film. (to me anyway)

Coll

PS. I still feel posters for new films aren't as exciting as they were years ago.

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:03 pm

To my mind ZULU DAWN isn't worth mucking about with, It was a very dissapointing film on its original release, and to my mind, still is pretty poor now - therefore, a new ZULU DAWN and perhaps a new ZULU made with CGI would be very interesting. I think one film would surfice, making both battles become one film in effect. A British film company should make it, and cast it, and choose a mighty good composer, possibly an American director (Peter Weir??) or the guy that directed DAS BOOT Wolfgang Peterson who has a particular eye for detail and authenticity.
many names have been thrown into the equation over the last few years, and I did read of Mel Gibson wanting to do this film and take it by the reigns, but he had trouble getting someone to finance it. So all in all a great opportunity for a budding film production company and director, its begging to be remade and retold correctly. Hopefully we'll get to see something before we get to old to be bothered! Regarding the ALAMO remake, this was a highly enjoyable film and was totally different to the WAYNE approach. It worked, and was different and modern, sadly it didn't get much exposure over here in the UK, to which it deserved, and it was a very costly production. Just why it didn't do better is beyond me! That said, the original WAYNE version has character and EVERYTHING that you need in ingredients to make a good all round film on an epic scale. Bit like a Disney film, but serious subject matter! It has it all, fine score, great character actors, well known filmmaker etc etc...Even the poster was a classic and fetches fortunes in todays market. So anyway - the point of my mention is that if your making a huge war film nowadays, you need to be careful that you don't go over old ground (as has many war films have over the last decade) and that we have to be careful, that a new epic doesn't offer anything new for us to digest. Also, One has to be careful, concentrate on character, and yet keep the film short and to the point, with a woeful eye in keeping the audience entertained despite trying to keep it authentic. It will upset the historians amongst us, but the guys who like their big scale entertainment (Like me) would welcome a new approach that pleases.
These kind of films are always highly looked forward to. So good luck and here's hoping to the new mighty ZULU 2 wherever or whenever it may surface.

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:27 pm

Leigh,

Can't see this happening in any event, BUT: Peter Weir is Australian, Wolfgang Petersen is German, and Mel Gibson (an American by birth) never had any intention of remaking ZULU: that was a myth long ago raised and demolished in this forum!

Sheldon

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:04 pm

With both battles containing so much in the way of action and excitement, I don't think a film covering both would be satisfactory, unless made about 3 hrs in length to at least try and include many details.

Definitely, CGI should be used for the terrain, no question in my mind about that, as Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift had features crucial to the battles - the mountains, hills, ridge, dongas, rivers, nek, etc., most of them very recognisable, especially to AZW enthusiasts. There is no way I would change my mind about this for a new film.

Coll

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:47 am

Coll - I see what you mean with the Custer of the West movie poster. The American half sheet movie poster as well as the GB quad depict the imagery more or less the same as the poster your referring too. Another fantastic poster if you can find one to view - is that of WATERLOO (1970) GB Quad. It has colour, scale, action and a huge flag, looks almost like a cherished oil painting its so vibrant! I agree with you, in that many of todays posters don't match the quality and artwork of pre-1980 movies.

Sheldon - Myth or not, I think the Mel Gibson 'notes' would have been done on a wim on the back of his epic glory 'Braveheart' and thankfully nothing will become of such a prepostrious idea. I mean, Mel Gibson! New to this forum - I've lost track rather of what many have been saying in the past on a new ZULU, and aspirations that people now have for a finer remake (If there indeed need be one.) I'm quite happy to leave things as they are, and would rather see a few more 'renowned' battles from the last century depicted on the big screen for the first time. I'll do a new header and ask for some new suggestions. Perhaps for now - i'd like to see a new Custer and Crazy horse movie - their lives were very similar in the lead up to the battle of Little Big Horn. CUSTER OF THE WEST was a little dissapointing in a way, especially looking back on it now.

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:06 pm

Leigh

I've been looking at many film posters, trying to imagine the same sort of images for new films based on the AZW.

As mentioned above, 'Custer of the West' is an idea of how to depict a film about the battle at Isandlwana, with Durnford's last stand in the foreground.

There are 2 other posters which would be great.

'Breaker Morant' which shows the main character centre and his 2 colleagues either side, in the bottom left an action scene, and in the bottom right a court martial scene.

The phrase on the poster is - ' Hero or Villain....his exploits shook an empire and made him a legend.'

Now this poster would suit a film about Col. Durnford, showing the battle in flashbacks during a Court of Inquiry into the defeat. The fact that 'Hero or Villain' is used on the poster reminded me of a topic in the old forum titled the same, on the subject of Durnford and his actions at Isandlwana.

'Waterloo' which shows Napoleon full-length standing with his back to the 'camera', dominating the whole scene, head bowed and left hand behind his back.

The phrase on the poster is - ' The battle. The man. The defeat.'

This poster could be depicting Chelmsford instead, as we did indeed see Chelmsford lower his head at the end of 'Zulu Dawn'.

Coll

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:03 pm

Coll - Another film to take a look at the poster, is from THE MAN WHO WOULD BE KING (1975) At first peak, you think its something to do with the Zulu wars', but then you notice charging horseman coming towards you as if it were something from Lawrence of Arabia.......Another great Caine film is KIDNAPPED, again the poster depicts something that could be from WATERLOO, (and not Rudyard Kipling!) as Michael Caine brandishes a sword across the top of the artwork.

Can you also have any ideas what the amercian 1-sheet movie poster of ZULU is talking about. have a look at the text sublines beneath the main artwork.....something like 'night of the 40,000 asseis????' Wasn't it 4,000 they should be referring too?? Confusing stuff.

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:53 pm

Leigh

Yes. 'The Man Who Would Be King' poster is great. The film itself is absolutely brilliant. Sean Connery and Michael Caine were perfect for the roles of the ex-soldiers seeking their fortune.

About the actor portraying Durnford in 'Zulu Dawn' - Burt Lancaster. There are 2 westerns that I liked which he starred in - 'Ulzana's Raid' and 'Valdez is Coming' - the poster for 'Valdez is Coming' is also very good.

Regarding the film 'Custer of the West', I've recently obtained the dvd and watched it, the last time being on video, taped from the television. I really enjoyed it for the film it was and the subject matter, but I still found myself imagining Custer as Durnford. I feel Robert Shaw's portrayal of him was great - the hero, but a glory hunter and a little bit 'crazy'. He was a good enough actor to be in the role, although I've read he was miscast in viewers' reviews. However, I have to disagree. The energy of his performance held my attention and I felt that is exactly what was missing in Burt Lancaster's portrayal of Durnford, but in saying that, if Lancaster had been younger, say, at the time of 'The Professionals', I think it would have made a difference, as I did like him in many of his earlier films.

The 'Son of the Morning Star' mini-series is a good version of Custer and the Little Bighorn, but I still very much like 'Custer of the West'.

Coll