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Rich
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I'm looking up "kraal" here in the dictionary (a Merriam Webster). The definitons show as noted "a village of Southern African natives" and an enclosure for domestic animals in southern Africa". Now if you also take a look at "nigger" , "a member of any dark-skinned race" you see that right after it's noted that the word is usually taken to be offensive. I'd be curious to note if this also gets picked up with "kraal" in South African dictionaries.
Mike Snook


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 130
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All

It's quite clear that in the C19th the originally Akrikaans word kraal became both anglicized and synonymous with 'place' - in the sense of dwelling-place: hence 'Sihayo's kraal'. It is how the soldiers and civilians of 1879 referred to these places - Sihayo's kraal, Gamdana's kraal, the royal kraals at Ulundi etc etc. (Adoption of the word began in the Cape of course). In 1879 these were proper place-names and it is perfectly acceptable to use them in that context, in the interests of historical authenticity.

Just down the valley from modern-day Rorke's Drift is the mission at Eland's Kraal - still called precisely that. Take out any decent scale map of South Africa and you will find that kraal recurs in a good many current place names.

There are no grounds for mixing up the Afrikaans word beeste-kraal meaning A STOCK PEN I HAVE BUILT TO PUT MY COWS IN and the anglicized/corrupted 'kraal' meaning AFRICAN DWELLING PLACE. It is only possible to confuse the two mischievously/deliberately and with malice aforethought. The context and meaning has diverged into two separate strands with the passage of time - kraal and kraal are not the same thing!!! Just as for example tank and tank.

Hence at Rorke's Drift we don't say 'the kraal' we say the cattle-kraal, to make plain that we anglos mean to use kraal here in the sense of beeste-kraal.

The word kraal still appears in the current South African edition of the Oxford English dictionary. There is no suggestion that the word is in any way offensive or means anything other than 'traditional African village'.

In any case Kraal appears in the glossary of both of my books as being a C19th word - but to know that one would have had to have read them.

I would of course march a thousand miles to avoid deliberately offending any genuinely held African sensitivties. But white man's PC games...not interested. Nor are the Africans.

Regards

Mike
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Thanks PQ for your informative post.
It gives us more of an insight as to how decisions regarding perceived offensive words are taken, or created, at the top of the chain, in Post-Apartheid South Africa.

If it annoys the King, then 'off with it's head' ! .....(Just kidding !)


And well said, Mike.

I think the general reader will understand the original Dutch/Boer/English word better than any other replacement.

I have a picture in my mind of a 'kraal', which for example 'homestead' just doesn't relate to.

And for further clarification, the word 'kraal' isn't just from the word 'beestekraal', (or Dutch 'veekraal'), it is a word in it's own right, with a number of other prefixes and suffixes, to differentiate its intended use/s. The prefix 'beeste' denotes its intended use in the context of a stock or cattle 'kraal'

The Boer explorers/settlers in the Eastern Cape referred to the indigenous peoples' (K.....s) dwelling complexes as 'K.....kraals', abbreviated to 'kraals'.

(Bearing in mind that the 'K' word was not used in a derogatory sense, but descriptional, and is neither Dutch nor Afrikaans in origin.
It has only become a racist term in the last Century, I believe.)

These terms were carried with the Boers in their migration into the hinterland, and incorporated into their language, as Afrikaans developed,
and eventually into Zululand.

In my mind, the quote "we have never lived in our cattle enclosures" is not quite what the Boers had in mind, when they first came over the brow of the hill and espied a collection of grass huts et al surrounded by a thorn fence to keep out the predators.
I would imagine that the livestock were all out in the veld by then doing what livestock do.

I guess we each read into it what we want to.

cheers,
Sean
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Peter Quantrill
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Mike,
Your final two sentences refer.
How then do you account for the views of Buthelezi, AMAFA, KZN Tourism, Gillings, Rattray and Caskie? Are we all wrong? And why should the first mentioned play 'white man's PC games?' His views, expressing a Zulu viewpoint, are paramount in my opinion and should be respected. There has to be substance to the move away from 'kraal' to 'homestead' or 'umuzi.' And if offence in Zulu eyes was not created, then it follows that the move away from the word 'kraal' would not be deemed necessary;hardly a PC issue and certainly not a 'white man's' issue.
As a matter of interest James Seymour, GM KZN Tourism, checked with senior Zulu staff members before phoning me on the issue.
It also goes without saying, that although we may have opposing opinions, your views on not offending African sensitivities remain absolutely unquestioned.
As ever,
From a damp, miserable and drizzly KZN.
Peter
Mike Snook


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 130
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P

There is no such thing as a paramount view in a mature democracy. You have answered your own question. I am sorry about the weather. But I'd swop ours for it cheerfully.

M

But isn't this thread meant to be about the so-called azwrs...?

I noted that the Anglo-Zulu War Historical Society (AZWHS) endorses the so-called azwrs. As I consider azwrs to be both unnecessarily boorish, and nakedly partisan, I deem AZWHS to be tainted by its open association with azwrs. As I set some store by my good name, and would not wish to be associated in any way with such goings on, I have today resigned from AZWHS.


Regards to all

Mike
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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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Mike

I applaud your principled stand. Every author no doubt accepts that his or her work will be subject to comment and that constructive criticism goes with the territory. You have been very generous with your time in answering many questions posed on this forum.

Having read both of your books, I find the reviews on Ms Hogan's AZWRS site carping and beyond fair comment. The ludicrous marks given to both books, in my opinion, undermine the credibility of the site still further.

I, for one, appreciate the effort that went into publication and in particular saw Isandhlwana from a new perspective.

Peter
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scarletto7


Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 91
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As the one who started this thread Mike, i revisited it and reread the reviews again, i have to readjust my findings, i found her review on rereading, unfair unjust and decidely a hatchet job. it becomes more apparent as you reread it.

I have always wondered why a reviewer rather than review, destroys. I do hope 'she' writes a book, i will happily review it for her.
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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AZWRS 'Old Boys Club' Conspiracy Theory ?
I rest my case.


The list of reviews, in the four categories, however, is quite impressive.
What I do is turn my computer screen upside down, and then re-assess the situation, ....'orientally'.

Combined with the RDVC post of 'must have' books, this would be a library to die for.


Mike, Sorry if I we have inadvertantly managed to raise your blood pressure a few kPa... Quite unintentional I'm sure.
DLTBGYD and keep up the good work.

Just finished reading the late Gen.Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockley's 'The edge of the sword'. Another historic military defence, this time at the Imjin, for which he was awarded the DSO, (deserved the VC), and a harrowing tale of re-education, misinformation, bloodletting and torture by the enemy. (Sound familiar ?)
A great fighting soldier, who passed away earlier this month.
Everyone should read this epitaph from the Telegraph, if not the book. An example of man's courage in the face of extreme adversity.
Makes one reassess one's own little problems, aches and pains.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2006/03/14/db1401.xml

cheers,
Sean
'Proletariat Rules ?'
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Many thanks to Mike and Peter Q for both of your very helpful contributions on the kraal topic, from which I've picked up a lot. Thanks, too, to Sean & Dawn who have brought added ex-pat SA input. (Incidentally, Sean, the "we have never lived in our cattle enclosures" remark was intended to convey the longstanding Zulu complaint rather than any Boer observation (which, unless I have misunderstood you, you took it to mean).

AZWRS Ltd

Well, exactly! I think, above all, people don't like being treated as idiots. It's all very well to want to push your own books and to use every legitimate means to do so, even by departing from all forms of subtlety, but to try to conceal these efforts beneath the cover of a claimed "independent" website is sufficiently ham-fisted as to be insulting to the readership. How many members has EH's "Society", I wonder? And who are the "committee"? How does one become a member? And in what great metropolis is it's headquarters?

That would be clumsy enough - but if you or I were setting up a site to push one's own output for all it was worth, I'm sure we'd come up with something just a little more subtle than simply getting that world-renowned AZW authority, Elizabeth Hogan, to "wax eloquent" about our own titles - utterly independently, of course - and then to make damned sure that she and I did our best to throttle all "competitors" at birth.

Sean, have a look at the thread started on 15 Dec under this illustrious "society's" title. "Conspiracy theory" is hardly the term! It seems to me that Mike has had a couple of nasty experiences - first they hijack his review, then try to destroy his books right at the outset. As I said earlier, however, the site is pretty transparent for anyone who looks, even though it is not intended to be. That's what I mean about treating us like idiots.

Like Mike's review, some of the reviews have been lifted from elsewhere. Despite the contributions by Ian Knight, for example, bearing a very recent date, I've read most of them ages ago elsewhere. No doubt he has given his permission, being a consultant of the "parent company", but I wonder why. I am a huge admirer of IK's scholarship and his writing, and have virtually all of his books - not just those on the AZW - but I cannot believe his standing can be other than tainted by association, even indirectly, with this particular site. (And he may wonder why his excellent "Go to Your God Like a Soldier" is categorised as a book about Rorke's' Drift!!!)

In my opinion, the whole affair leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth and, given that their cover has been blown, I would think the sooner the site is "pulled" the better.

Peter

P.S. Being a native of a Cinque Port myself, I may even complain to the Lord Warden ...
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Rich
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Yes Peter and you know they don't even have Rorkesdriftvc.com as a link!!
Now I figure Alan and Peter's site has been up for quite a while and surely instrumental in advancing AZW scholarship and bring the AZW to a larger public. You'd think,at the least, they'd get a mere mention for clearing a way. Snipy snipy snipy. Perhaps we are now in the next phase of AZW historical research where it is not the subject that is not only being scrutinised intensely but the writers ,researchers and historians themselves who must need to bunker down now in their own dongas in the face of attack.
John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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In case anyone needs any reassurance the Anglo-Zulu War Research Society, that was formed as a society of like-mided enthusiasts on 4th July 1992, distances itself from the comments of Anglo Zulu War Research Society Limited, which appears to share its registered offices with the Anglo Zulu War Historical Society.
(Peter E., From a Kentish view can Tenterden be considered a metropolis?)

If Ms Hogan is so on the ball, then why can't she spell Rorke's Drift correctly? Obviously her days as a 'full time student' are being wasted! Or maybe she is learning from the wrong source, one that isn't recognised by the U.K.'s Department of Education, who knows?

John


Last edited by John Young on Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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John

Yes, my "great metropolis" was tongue in cheek, Tenterden being such a small town as to be hardly bigger than a large village - and, quite by coincidence, the home of both these two entirely "unconnected" organisations, the AZWHS Ltd and the AZWRS Ltd.

P.
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Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Well said, both Peters.

Peter E, no worries, I fully understand where you're coming from, on everything said.
The 'theory' appears to have now surfaced as 'reality'.

I guess it just remains to debate what we can all do about it ? if anything !

You as Admiral, Cinque Ports should have some say in any 'final solution' ,
or are you more concerned with maintaining your duty-free Jamaican Rum allowance ?

And in passing, it took a lot to survive Southern Africa in the early settler days. It wasn't all one sided, and I make no apologies for its History.
As the 9th generation from a Holsteiner sergeant in the VOC, settled at the Cape in 1693, I'm proud of my Afrikaans heritage. My mother's family trekked into Natal in the 19th century from the Eastern Cape, through the hinterland, and escaped the post Piet Retief 'Bloukrans' massacre by the Zulu in 1838.
http://www.anglo.50megs.com/bloukrans.htm
I grew up in rural Zululand, and I'm not afraid to give my opinion on anything that I have any knowledge or understanding of, especially if I disagree with what has been said, or I perceive any injustice.

It is our right in the democracies that we live in.

I think Mike Snook has been hard done by,
but I have a saying; "at the end of the day, 'Mother Nature' will attend to all those that cause injustice."

Patience, brothers, and goodwill to all men !
(The 'girls' will have to look to their own !)
cheers,
Sean
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Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Wales
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Rich wrote:
Yes Peter and you know they don't even have Rorkesdriftvc.com as a link!!


Some time ago, RDVC.COM did request the courtesy of a link on the AZWHS site and was refused.

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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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That is inexplicable.

Peter
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A review of a review
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