rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:26 am

Hello everyone,

Here's the thing. I'm cobbling together a uniform based on C/Sgt Bourne's but I got the strange feeling that the movie ZULU isn't the best reference material for the little stuff. The refs that I've read say one thing, the movie another. While I guess movies aren't the best sources of historical information I'm just wondering what the movie got right and what it got wrong regarding Frank Bourne's 'costume'. Like number of buttons up front, position of sash, belt with or without ammo pouches, color of facings, facing shape and size and lacing at the collar, shoulder straps, white piping down the front of the jacket, stuff like that.

Thanks very much,
Tom516

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:59 am

Dear Tom,

I am not sure why you are using the film as your starting point? There are some good illustrations in a number of books - by Ian Knight. Perhaps you should contact us direct.

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:14 am

Martin,

Both the two illustrations I can think of in books by Ian Knight have the wrong rank insignia for a Colour Sergeant wearing the five-button frock, so maybe not a good place to start either?

John Y.

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:10 am

I guess I've gone the way most have - interest in the movie and then on to the actual history. Embarassed

Things have been moving so fast and I really should have thought of asking here first thing... Idea

Tom516

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:54 pm

Dear John,

I was looking at a quick response to Tom's message. I know that you have detailed knowledge of the AZW so why not be helpful and respond to Tom. There are not enough hours and the day for me to be as knowledgeable as you about the AZW so please respect that I am fallible and have many other campaigns involving 24th/SWB/MONS to respond to.

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:14 pm

Dear Martin,

What do you mean by ...so why not be helpful and respond to Tom... ?

As I see it I am already answering him, on another thread on the forum, relating to the insignia and uniform of a Colour Sergeant. Please see http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336

But how many times do I have to answer the same question?

This reply from the old forum, for example:-

22nd February 2003 John Young
Richard,

With regard to your query on the rank insignia. The rank of a colour-sergeant when in full dress was denoted a crown over two crossed Union Flags, which in turn were over three gold chevrons.

However, on the five button serge jacket, the badge of rank was a crown over three gold chevrons.

As the wearing of four chevrons the following ranks wore four chevrons: Sergeant-Major, worn below a crown; Quartermaster-Sergeant; Drum-Major worn below a drum trade badge, or a bugle in the case of light infantry. These rank ditinctions were worn on the cuff of the tunic.

Infantry of the line wore their rank insignia on the right arm/cuff only, however there were exceptions- light infantry, fusilier, highland & rifle regiments wore their badges of rank on both arms/cuffs.

As to the film 'Zulu' and the wearing of the rank insignia on the left arm, I think that can be put down to poor research.

Or this one:

30th January 2004 John Young
Chris & Andrew,

One chevron: Lance Corp.; Bombardier (R.A.); 2nd Corp. (R.E.; A.S.C. & A.H.C.)

Two chevrons: Corporal.

Three white chevrons: Lance Sergeant.

Three gold chevrons: Sergeant.

Three gold chevrons surmounted by a crown: Troop Sergeant-Major (Cavalry); Sergeants (R.E. & R.A.); Staff Sergeant (Infantry, also if ranked as a Colour-Sergeant, in undress serge.).

Four gold chevrons surmounted by a drum: Drum-Major � Bugle-Major in Light Infantry & Rifle Regiments & Trumpet-Major in Cavalry.

Three gold chevrons surmounted by crossed Union Flags, surmounted in turn by a crown: Colour-Sergeant in full dress only. Colour-Sergeants in Rifle Regiments & the Royal Marine Light Infantry had more complicated designs.

Four gold chevrons worn on the cuff: Quartermaster-Sergeant.

Four gold chevrons worn on the cuff, surmounted by a crown: Sergeant-Major.

Four gold chevrons worn on the cuff, surmounted by a cannon, surmounted in turn by a crown: Staff Sergeant � Royal Artillery.

2nd Lieutenant/Sub-Lieutenant: one Garter Star on collar.

Lieutenant: crown on collar

Captain: Crown & one Garter Star on collar.

Major: One Garter Star on collar, the collar is embellished with �bullet-hole braid�.

Lieutenant-Colonel: Crown, the collar is embellished with �bullet-hole braid�.

Colonel: Crown & Garter Star, the collar is embellished with �bullet-hole braid�.

There were also cuff-designations of ranks involving bars of bullion and Austrian knots, which are best described in images rather than words.

The answers are already on this site, it doesn't take too much to look for them, or does it?

Maybe the quickest response isn't always the best response?

John Y.

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:38 am

I fear I really was making an assumption and quite an ignorant one at that (looks like I'll be retailoring the frock rear now) though I should have been forewarned by an old magazine article on a Rorke's Drift diorama - the modeller had purchased some Zulu movie figures but had had to do extensive repair work to make them accurate. In any case I fear I have fallen into the mortal sin of presumption and I do beg everyone's forgiveness. That being said I must say in my defense that I really only gathered up the courage to join this site this year because of some rather negative experiences I've had on other mailing lists/discussion fora which did not take too kindly to computer gamers - most of them were for boardgamers and I suppose they (with some justification) looked at computer gamers as brainless kids who were destroying their precious hobby. In any case that's why I've taken so long about it. Frankly I'm just glad that you chaps caught it before we could formally release the mod to the public.

Again many thanks,
Tom516

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:30 am

Dear John,

You quote the style of officer's rank star as 'Garter'. My understanding was that they were 'Bath' stars. Only Household Cavalry, Grenadier and Coldstream Guards wore 'Garter' stars. (Scots Guards - 'Thistle' stars). I have checked with Coghill's tunic.

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:10 am

Dear Martin,

Again see the old forum in a subsequent posting to mine of January 2004.

Adrian W. & I have already been down that route, my contemporary source, from a late friend of mine, did indeed relate the Coldstream Guards.

John Y.

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:33 pm

Wherever did I get the idea that the back of the frock coat has curved white piping (Knocks self on head) - even my 1/72 scale Esci British Infantry from the Zulu Wars have straight piping.

Would you guys have a picture kicking around somewhere of how the rear of the frock tunic really looks - you've given me a better idea but it's better to be safe this time than sorry I think.

Many many thanks,
Tom516

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:26 am

By the way, would the chevrons be stitched on to cloth of the facing color as had been done previously?

Many thanks,
Tom516

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:34 am

I saw a photo dated in the 1880s of one of the defenders at Rorke's Drift, i don't recall his name, i want to say Henry Gallagher but I'm not sure..Anyway, in the caption, it said Sgt/Maj so and so and on his tunic above his right cuff was a Queens crown.
I always thought that was the designation for Sgt/Maj in an undress frock.

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:37 pm

Mikey,

Yes in the 1880's, post 1881 changes. The information regarding rank insignia relates to 1879.

John Y.

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:41 pm

John Young wrote:

Mikey,

Yes in the 1880's, post 1881 changes. The information regarding rank insignia relates to 1879.

John Y.

Thank you John, Atleast i wasn't seeing things. I knew of the uniform changes but didn't think that the rank insignia would change too.