rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:25 pm

Martin
I first visited the museum in 1972. It was very different then.
I remember talking to the then curator who said that he was going to employ the services of an archivist to record and log everything that was stored "upstairs". Obviously, since those days much work has been done at the museum and a lot more is known regarding the contents of the records held. However, I'm wondering if everything that the museum holds has now been archived or are there still items awaiting their turn for discovery?

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:22 am

Dear Mel,

We have certainly moved on a pace since even since the publication of Norman Holmes' book 'The Noble 24th'. Thanks to the tremedous help from the likes of Julian Whybra, Lee Stevenson, Alan Baynham Jones and Kris Wheatley and of course the many families who came to museum. There is still much to do - it really requires more time in the National Archives at Kew.

We have managed to get most of the medal rolls for the 24th and SWB organised. The ABW alone involving 3,500 of the SWB (that's 1,000 more than the numbers for 24th in AZW) has taken me some 8 years to get in reasonable state. We manged to get copies of the rolls for Malaya (1955-56) and Aden (1967) before the Army Medal Office closed last year. We are now working on the enlistment/discharge books (which were going to be destroyed by MoD!) for the 1920s/1930s - over 10,000 names! There is much to do - then I get interrupted by those who wish to know about (great) granddad in WW1 and which trench he was in.

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:32 am

Martin

I am completely won over. I referred in LWOTF to either Chard or Reynolds misidentifying Jenkins - on the basis that I thought there was only one Jenkins present - and that Chard and Reynolds were saying mutually incompatible things about him.

There had to be two Jenkins's; one a patient which Reynolds described as debilitated by fever like Maxfield, and who was killed, and the other, David, who saved Chard by ducking his head down, at a stage in the fighting which places it after the evacuation of the hospital.

But I'm none the wiser about the circumstances of James's death? Anybody help?

Regards

Mike

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:31 am

Martin and I have had some ongoing correspondence over Jenkins for a while now and I've had time to think it over. It is certainly true that Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 Jenkins and Roy (all 1/24th) had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to the letter written by Col. Sergt. Wm. Edwards (kia Isandhlwana). They were certainly at Rorke�s Drift at the time of the battle. Given the fact that Edwards's letter was sent and therefore written a few days before the battle, it stands to reason that the prisoner escort had been gone some days, had delivered their prisoners (lucky men!), and were on their way back to Isandhlwana (that's why there were no prisoners at RD). Jenkins and Roy had become ill and had been admitted to hospital in the interim (we know that 295 Jenkins had had long periods of hospitalization). I surmise then that it was David Jenkins who was in the hospital and James Jenkins who was on the mealie bag wall, was recorded by Chard, and was subsequently killed. What do you think?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:47 pm

Given the contemporary evidence - accounts by Gunner Evans, Surgeon Reynolds and the Rev. Smith - it would appear that 'Pte Jenkins' was killed in, or possibly in the immediate vicinity of the hospital. Evans implies that he had been in the same room as Pte Adams and Jenkins - and it could be read that he left them there when he escaped - this would tie in with Reynolds' comments that several men refused to leave and only three, Jenkins included, were actually killed IN the hospital. Smith's accounts goes into further detail and states that Jenkins was dragged away whilst venturing through one of the holes cut in the internal walls.

On that basis then surely it must have been 841 Pte James Jenkins in the hospital and 295 David Jenkins outside and who later 'saved' Chard.

There is nothing in 295 Jenkins' medical history sheet to suggest that he spent any longer in hospital than average - 51 days for "Inflammation of glands" back in 1876 and 25 days treatment as a result of wound received whilst in the act of desertion in late 1876-early 1877 being the longest spells in 'hospital.'

If anything his service records suggest more of a discipline problem, with at least 4 counts of attempted desertion and or leaving his picquet. Surely then there is room to speculate that he might even have been one of the "prisoners"

Indeed according to C/Sgt Edwards, Pte Desmond of "G company" received 50 lashes for insubordination (possibly on or around 13th January), and secondary sources confirm that he had received a fine for drunkenness on the 19th January 1879 - so perhaps he too was a better candidate for 'prisoner' rather than 'prisoner escort'!

Of course if Desmond has indeed received 50 lashes, it could assumed that he would be under some kind of medical supervision at RD, or elsewhere whilst he 'recovered.'....or not?

Lee

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:04 pm

I haven't seen the text of the Edwards letter but will aim to get hold of a copy soonest - just a random thought but are we talking about defaulter prisoners (escort seems large) or perhaps prisoners of war - from Sihayo's kraal perhaps?

The other group that must have gone to RD at this time and then seem to have disappeared into thin air were the black NNC casualties from 12 Jan - various estimates of numbers - but let's call it a dozen - of whom only one is still at RD on 22 Jan. I presume (logically?) the rest were evacuated to Helpmekaar (?) and possibly back again to Ladysmith (?) But why was one left behind? Was he perhaps less seriously hurt than all the others and expected to return to duty soon - or more seriously hurt and couldn't be moved. Euro cas kept at RD for some reason.

I wish they would hurry up with that time machine!!

M

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:11 am

All right, I agree that the evidence would indicate that James Jenkins was in the hospital and David Jenkins was on the wall. David Jenkins was definitely not a prisoner but was part of the escort. The Times of Oct 1879 records the return home of Jenkins and states that he was one of the prisoner escort party. I'd missed this the first time round because Lee and Alan's book assumes this report referred to James not David (it couldn't of course because James was kia).

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:10 pm

At present then much of our speculation is based around the Times piece from October 1879, which doesn't actually 'state' that Jenkins was one of "the prisoner escort party" but that he, along with Wilson, Roy, Payton and Desmond had been "to the rear with prisoners." Given what has already been stated about Desmond - I just can't believe that someone with his disciplinary record, and, if C/Sgt Edwards' account is to be believed, who had also just received 50 lashes for "insubordination" would then be sent off to 'guard' other prisoners - be they Zulu or British defaulters?

Mike,
I note that 1 NCO and 6 privates were detailed off to guard the ponts, but was there some regulation dictating the numbers of men required for guard duties of any description? (...1 NCO or Pte, preferrably AHC or otherwise Regimental, was required to escort ambulances to and from hospitals - according to Woolfryes)

There does indeed seem to be some difference of opinion as to the numbers of NNC casualties from the 12th January - Surgeon Gen. Woolfryes records; "two Natives killed and two wounded." A casualty return, dated 15th Jan and signed by Crealock, records "2 Natives killed - 6 Natives severely wounded" and "6 slightly wounded." (*)

(*Interestingly to the current thread, a further return by Crealock records that 10 Zulu prisoners were taken on the 12th - and presumably this figure includes 4 others listed as "wounded"). The 'Narrative of Field Ops' (page 167) however shows 2 NNC killed and 13 wounded.

Julian,
I would have to question whether the book makes any particular assumption that the "Pte Jenkins" referred to in the Times report actually refers to James as opposed to David. The Times piece is included in a separate section of the book away from specific accounts by defenders. You will also note that David Jenkins' account is not even listed with those of 'Defenders.' It is only more recently that we have looked again at his case, and, with the discovery of his RD bible, can feel fully confident to include him as a defender.

Lee

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:19 am

Lee
The Times account in your book is listed in the index against the name of Pte James Jenkins - that was what I was referring to. I mentioned it merely to clarify why I'd missed it first time round.
Also the report states:
"Among the men...were Sergeant Wilson, Lance-Corporal Roy, and Privates Desmond, Payton and Jenkins, who had been to the rear with prisoners, and who returned in time to join with B Company...".
This makes it clear that the named group and "the prisoners" are mutually exclusive; that they "HAD been to the rear", not that they were going to the rear; that they had "RETURNED" from their escort duty "in time to" defend RD.

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:06 pm

Concerning who the other Jenkins was at Rorke's Drift, I have been building a database of all those involved in the 1877-8-9 wars, (29,600 + so far!!!).

I have done a search and found that there were only 7 soldiers of the 24th named Jenkins. Of these, Privates Watkin Jenkins 1083 1st/24th, William Jenkins 1135 G coy 2nd/24th, and William Jenkins 1767 1st/24th can be discounted as they were killed at Isandhlwana.

Of the four remaining, Private W Jenkins 1509 came from 25 Brigade depot 21/1/1879 and posted to D coy 2nd/24th on 29/1/1879, so I don't think he could have been there on 22/1/1879. James Jenkins 841 1st/24th we know was killed at Rorke's Drift. Which leaves Private David Jenkins 295 and R Jenkins 139 both 1st/24th. I think R Jenkins was most probably at Helpmakaar, which only leaves David Jenkins as the only possible other Jenkins at Rorke's Drift as far as I can see.

By the way it's taken me over six years so far to collect the data, and I'm still going. (Taking breaks to stop my head spinning!!!)

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:52 pm

Hi Lee,

Not that I know of, though guards of any kind tend to come in multiples of 2 privates with an NCO in charge - simply because sentries are posted in pairs. So 1 SNCO and 6 or a NCO and 8 might be fairly typical of minor details. Of course whereas these days that size of guard detail has a tactical counterpart - the corporal's section -in those days the section was a sergeant's command and much more synomous with what we would today call a platoon.

With prisoners, the number of escorts would depend on the quantity under escort. You would not for example have more than 2 escorts for one prisoner and then only if he was very dangerous. In those days somebody who was dangerous would probably be in chains. Mostly a defaulter who has 'done the crime' is content to 'do the time' so escorting him around is a bit of a formality. Having said that I do recall one defaulter who escaped out of the front gate in Germany (with 6 inches of snow on the ground and dressed only in a set of coveralls) who was next recaptured in Swansea - a 'home run' fit to match anything from the days of Colditz!!

I digress - but the (odd exceptions aside!) the generally applicable principle of defaulter compliance is what inclines me to wonder whether this is a reference to an escort to prisoners of war (an altogether trickier proposition) rather than defaulters.

It sort of chimes with Lord C's concern that 3rd NNC should not harm any women and chidlren at kwaSoxhexe. Before the butchery at Isandlwana upset the apple cart, I am quite sure he meant to fight a civilized war in which PWs would be quite commonplace. As you know after 22 Jan it became war to the knife and PWs were something of a rarity.

There must have been PWs at kwaSoxhexe and I think Lord C would been keen to see that they were fairly dealt with at this stage.

If they were escorting defaulters - who were they (and it would have to be they) and what on earth had they done? And why don't we know about it? It would have to be a very serious offence for a soldier to be taken out of the field as a prisoner. After all most defaulters could just have been flogged and left to get on with it.

Lord, I dunno!! PWs perhaps?

Regards as ever

Mike

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:41 pm

So then, is 295 Pte. David Jenkins to be added to the list of defenders? Who decides on that sort of thing?

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:10 pm

Alan

Such matters would rest with the descendant regiment, on the basis of the best historical advice it can obtain. That would undoubtedly be channelled through Martin. Maybe he should convene a panel of wise men to arbitrate the case!! He's out of the country at the moment, but I'm sure will comment upon his return.

Regards as ever

Mike

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:53 pm

It looks a good case to me - add him to the list.

Peter

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:30 am

Did this matter ever get sorted out?
thanks
John