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Cetshwayo's Glove
Andrew Bush


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 66
Location: Melbourne Australia
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Just reading �Running the Gauntlet� and notice Cetshwayo has a glove on one hand in the photo does anyone know why??? Between pages 60 & 61????

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Andrew
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Andrew,

In the Bassano image of King Cetshwayo kaMpande, taken in their studio, the other glove is on the table, next to his hat. I imagine that it was the King's, or photographer's choice, to keep the left hand gloved.

I have other images of the king, either wearing or holding gloves, he obviously liked them as a prop.

John Y.
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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The cane, gloves and hat were essential accoutrements of a gentleman's wardrobe and - speaking from memory - I think the cane appears in some of these pictures, doesn't it? The gloves would generally appear in the photo as either held in one hand of the subject, on the table, or - less often - on the hands. Why the King had removed only one in the photo I've no idea.

When the chiefs of the amaXhosa and amaFengu who were defeated and/or captured by the Cape Colony government between the 1830s and 1850s were incarcerated on Robben Island, many of their sons were sent to Zonnebloem College at the Cape for an English/Christian education, and a few of these were eventually selected for missionary training here in Canterbury in the 1860s. Turning up here, the first thing which happened to them was to be photographed in the local studio in top hat and tails with gloves and cane - all part of the "conversion" procedure (along with some cricket, of course) while their exiled families froze and were half-starved on Robben Island!

In each case, however, the gloves were held in the hand or placed on the "prop" table in the usual way.

Peter
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Andrew Bush


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 66
Location: Melbourne Australia
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Its quite unusal you see both his hands, the left gloved the right not, the book states photo taken in August 1882 London. why would the other glove be on a table out of sight????????????????

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Andrew
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Andrew,

The glove is NOT out of sight it is on the table, beside his hat, the thumb of the discarded glove is pointing downwards in line with the King's forearm, to the left of the hat's brim.

John Y.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Andrew,

Here is King Cetshwayo kaMpande, in Cape Castle, circa 1880.

Complete with hat; cane & gloves as Peter mentioned.

John Y.

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Rich
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Dapper fellow..shirt..Turnbull and Asser?....Wink..I also was wondering if Cetshwayo knew any English. That is could he converse or did he have a translator?
John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Rich,

The chap next to him is his interpreter, R. C. Samuelson.

John Y.
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Thought swop the previous picture, for this one.

John Y.

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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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John

The Castle picture puzzles me a little.

Although it is clearly taken at the Castle, as the props were used in some of the other well known snaps taken there, and the man in the rear might appear to resemble RC Samuelson a little (although I don't think RCS had a moustache & goatee beard at that time & this chap is a little fuller in the face) by the latter's own account he did not travel down from Natal to the Cape until the turn of the year 1880/81, taking up his duties (officially at least) on 1st Jan 1881, by which time he reports that the King was already at Oude Moulen. (Long, Long Ago, pp94-95). I take this to mean that the King and Samuelson were never together at the Castle, but if you or anyone else can put me right there I'd be grateful, as I could always have misunderstood something somewhere.

Peter

P.S. Since writing the above I've just checked one or two of the published snaps of the King in captivity. Captions are not infallible (as we all know!) but Laband (see Rope of Sand plate 50, pp368x369) shows the whole group of five in your Castle picture and names the chap leaning on the cannon barrel as Longcast - who, of course, did interpret for the King at the Castle. What do you think?
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Peter,

Thanks for that in my haste I put down Samuelson, as his name appears on the key given on reverse of the original photograph; without checking any other sources for the image.

Given the dates you mention, J. R. Poole was obviously on his way to meet his fate in the 1st Anglo-Boer War, so the interpreter could not be Samuelson.

I currently unavailable to check my 1880 Graphic which might shed some further light on the man's identity, as they reproduced the image as an engraving.

Thanks again,

John Y.
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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John

Yes, that's presumably the sketch you reproduced on the cover of Vol 8 Issue No 1 of the A-ZWRS Journal. The sketch, and the photo itself reproduced in Rope of Sand, are nice & clear and it may well be that Prof Laband's source for the identification of Longcast is sound. (Picture credit is to Ian Knight). On the other hand, Prof Etherington indicates that Longcast and his sister Tilly were of mixed race, which one can't necessarily deduce from this picture alone. (Laband refers to him in the caption as William, while indexing him as Henry William, which is correct, although Etherington calls him "Harry", which may have been the name he used - Rev Robertson's family, who brought him up in Zululand, appear to have referred to him as Henry).

The King was certainly fortunate in the choice the authorities made for his companion and interpreters, given that the respective characters of Poole, Longcast and Samuelson are invariably described as honest, straight, honourable and scrupulously fair, so it is no surprise that each in turn came to admire and like the King. Longcast already knew him from way before the AZW, as had Samuelson's father. (Just as well, given that the guards responsible for his security at Oude Moulen were apparently a very nasty Irish couple, a Dutchman with a bad-tempered wife and a German sneak!!!)

Peter
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Rich
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Peter/John....do you think any of his conversations were transcribed at any point? Maybe they're at Killie Campbell's????
And also you know me John on bios... let me ask the question...any modern day bio done of the King? A personality worth exploring I think. I can see the titles now... C (helmsford) &C(etshwayo)... "A Notable Duo of the Anglo-Zulu War"...
Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Rich

Yes, Samuelson recorded (or paraphrased) several of the conversations which took place between the King and him at Oude Moulen (Jan 81 to May 82). These were published in his memoirs (Long, Long Ago, Durban 1929).

Cetshwayo's military escort or "minder", Capt JR Poole, RA, had by then already taken down the King's own personal account of the history of the Zulu clan, nation and empire (from Senzangakona to Ulundi and after) while the King was in the Castle at the Cape, having been related to and translated by Longcast. It was published in No 244, Vol XLI (Feb 1880) of Macmillan's Magazine and in modern times in the issue of the A-ZWRS (not AZWRS or AZWHS) Journal indicated above. At a quick & rough calculation I'd say it runs to over 14,000 words. It has been used by historians but I'm not aware of any other organ which has published it verbatim (JY may know).

The only full length biography of Cetshwayo that I can think of is CT Binns: The Last Zulu King - the Life & Death of Cetshwayo (Longmans, 1963). He also completed a biography of Dinizulu. However, Laband naturally covered much of the King's life and times in Rope of Sand and Kingdom in Crisis as did Brian Roberts in The Zulu Kings. Full length histories of the Zulu nation & empire by Morris and Taylor also obviously cover his life & times. Some good papers published over the years in RSA are also worth tracking down.

Anglican missionaries such as Colenso, Robertson, Wilkinson and others also recorded and published some of the detailed conversations they had with Mpande and Cetshwayo, and "lesser" missionaries also included some accounts of these in letters which have not reached publication. There is no doubt a feast of (untapped?) primary source material in the archives of the various Norwegian and German missionary societies.

A long way now from Cetshwayo's glove!

Peter
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Rich
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Thank you gentlemen....I don't know ...my book bill always seem to rise when I talk to you....
Cetshwayo's Glove
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