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Johnny_H
| Joined: 19 Feb 2006 |
| Posts: 101 |
| Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia |
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 Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:49 pm |
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| Michael Boyle wrote: | Johnny H,
Before we come down too hard on Greaves for this one, one must remember that the lack of laager and/or entrenchment was the primary contemporary speculation as the reason for the defeat (along with being suckered out of camp). Lord Chelmsford actually published pre-campaign booklets specifying that columns should in fact laager but personally nixed this idea for 3 column when it was suggested at Isandlwana (much to the chagrin of some officers present) for a number of reasons. I believe the point that Mike Snook was emphasizing was that although it was supposed to be done all along that it was only after Jan 22 1879 that it was insisted upon (hind sight being such a remarkable quality!) thus Adrian Greaves is taking an old line on this one, one that has maintained much support through the decades and even today. (Not by myself of course!) Check the various lively debates we've had in this forum and the old!
Best
Michael |
 Thx for the reply, for me its not about coming down on Greaves for anything. I really enjoyed his book "Across the Buffalo" page for page, as I am really enjoying How Can Man Die Better. I am just looking for things that I notice differ from the two titles, It would probley be more comprehensive to go between HCMDB and Greaves "Isandlwana" seeing as they both single handedly deal with the battle itself.
I am just "Giving it time to soak in" and trying to discern differances between the two narratives. I Do agree with your post, my point about Greaves though was that he has a few instances were he says that "Chelmsford and his staff neglected their own procedures as stated befor the invasion" and my question is was "lagering of wagons" the documented procedure? prior to Isandlwana as Greaves seemed to suggest.
Ill be sure to check a few of the subjects on the forum for that answer, and not let this one stray too Off Topic.
thx |
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_________________
"It looks, er, jolly simple doesn't it? (Bromhead to Adendorff)
Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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scarletto7
| Joined: 07 Mar 2006 |
| Posts: 91 |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:04 pm |
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Firstly i would like to say hello to all on the forum, as a somewhat casual reader of the history of the Zulu war of 1879 but yes an avid viewer of the two films, i saw this book advertised on Amazon and decided to purchase it.
Firstly i have to say that the few previous books i have read, have glossed over in many cases the role or more importantly the actions of the British infantry, which led me to think that they actually did more harm to the zulus standing, by implying the zulu was some mindless savage and just charged disregarding losses.
As an ex-military man i felt this was something that didn't sit right, that the zulu was rather more savvy than some authors seemed to think, and also that a British Regiment isn't just rolled over, that isn't jingoism for a better term, but plain fact.
So this book, whilst to me not only giving a better picture of what happened also gave credit to both sides.
Its not a one read book, certainly it is a book that has to be read two or three times (I'm on my fourth reading) and more seems to become apparent each time the book is read.
I would like to say that this is the definitive account of what happened, but that is impossible, the definitive account happened on that blood soaked day and maybe quite rightly it stays there, however I'd be more than suprised (and happy) if a better book came out, however for me its certainly the best for this period and also one of the best books on a military action in any period.
what I'd be interested in, for inclusion, is a map showing the cairns and grave markers if their is such a map
I thank you for your time, and hope that i havent stood on anyones toes!
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mike snook 2
| Joined: 04 Jan 2006 |
| Posts: 920 |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:54 pm |
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Dear Scarletto
I'd just like to thank you for your remarks and in particular for pointing out to people that you just don't float over this one once like a comic, which is what so many people look to do these days. One does have to read it two or three times to 'get it', and to join it all up. It is not a beginner's book.
Dawn is right to highlight the F W D Jackson work as having about the most accessible map of the cairns. But, deductions from cairn plotting need to be handled with care - a cairn might have one man under it, or it might have twenty. One cairn might have been raised over just one man who died just there, or who might have been dragged from over there a hundred yards away by jackals. One just can't tell.
Anyway,
With grateful thanks for your kind words - and you are quite right - a British regiment isn't just rolled over. Plenty have tried, the Zulus are amongst the few to have succeeded, but it cost them, and they went home knowing it had cost them. Perhaps the remarkable thing about the war was that they tried again at Gingindlovu and Kambula, and even more remarkably, when all was lost, at Ulundi.
Regards
Mike
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scarletto7
| Joined: 07 Mar 2006 |
| Posts: 91 |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:27 pm |
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Mike, i thank you for your comments, and well nice to see that you take the trouble too.
Certainly regarding firstly the cairns, it is i suppose highly problematic as to who lies under them, but that is certainly due to time, or should i say the era of the Battle, it was more for interest than actual plotting reasons, certainly due to what I've read on this forum, i must read more!!
Regarding the rolling over, the 24th did in some books appear on a firing line then next minute in valiant groups, leaving me to wonder why the Zulu dead weren't less, and the idea that the firing line was some huge snake made me think maybe the commanders were having a laugh!
However i think you've certainly put that into perspective, and also the era as well, some think of the zulu war officers and their mens ideals and strengths and weaknesses in 21st century terms, you've done your regiment proud, and as importantly their opponents.
whilst this post may seem slightly hero worshipping or whatever term is available, i tend to think that you deserve all the praise you've had!!!
i certainly think the men of that day will be raising their glasses to you
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mike snook 2
| Joined: 04 Jan 2006 |
| Posts: 920 |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:40 pm |
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Scarletto
Well, a raised glass is all that any of us gets ultimately! I am keen to point out for general consumption that this is nothing to do with sticking up for the regiment. After all, it doesn't need any sticking up for - the Zulu primary sources do that.
It is the fact that I was told I should be proud of my regiment from a very early age that actually drove me to do all the research - to see if it was true that I should be so proud of them. There is no element of bias about it, though foolish comments to that effect have been offered elsewhere. There is nothing to hide from or be embarrassed by in this epic tale as it turns out, but as I have written elsewhere, when modern writers come from left of field with no evident understanding of the dynamics of war, battle, campaigning, soldiering, and decide to slate VC winners from a range of 125 years, then I get cross.
Regards
Mike
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Johnny_H
| Joined: 19 Feb 2006 |
| Posts: 101 |
| Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:38 pm |
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| One does have to read it two or three times to 'get it', and to join it all up. It is not a beginner's book. |
Quoted for truth, I find it hard to follow sometimes 
But I figure a little more time with it and some maybe printed out maps, and Ill be OK 
I guess i was expecting the Cornelius Ryan version of Isandlwana and infact what i got was much much better, just needs more then my usual casual attention span.
Because I'm really interested though its not stretch for me to re-read chapters, get some maps out, and while all this looks extremely odd at work, its just as fascinating. |
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_________________
"It looks, er, jolly simple doesn't it? (Bromhead to Adendorff)
Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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