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andrew


Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 4
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Hi Mike
Truly enjoyed the book - and at the same time I believe quite brave of you, because I can see it attracting criticism. I have been to Isandlwana three times now, and have walked the spur on two separate occasions. I have never understood why Pulleine never acted on the seemingly apparent intentions of the right horn. You suggested not enough troops to defend the rear of the camp. The NNC could surely have been employed to strike the tents, the perimeter could have been considerably shortened, and the camp saved. Hindsight I know - but I am still not convinced that Colonel Pulleine wasn't 'overwhelmed' by the speed of events and that the tactical cohesion which you have demostrated wasn't more to the credit of the Officers of the line. One final point - whilst I respect your views concerning Melvill and Coghill I am also reminded of General Wolseley's comments with respect to their actions.
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Andrew

Hi. Glad you enjoyed the read. I don't think it's at all brave to expose the truth! It's the truth as I see it, after, believe me, an awful lot of contemplation.

Before you jump too far into bed with dear Sir Garnet please read some of his journals. He was a frightful man who had an opinion on everything - he saw no merit in anybody except himself. He even turned on the memebrs of the 'ring' eventually. His attempts to blame Sir Charles Wilson for his own failure to get to Khartoum in time are particularly despicable. He was spiteful bitchy and vindictive and a snob. He was always going on about so and so not being a gentleman, but the one thing that leaps out from is journals is how ungentlemanly he himself was.

Regards

Mike
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andrew


Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 4
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- Talking of snobbish behaviour and if the subject at all interests you there is a very good book by Andrew Forbes on the Battle of Jutland (title escapes me). This is relevant so far as Berkley-Milne is concerned - and his naval career. Beatty was particuraly scathing of this mans ability - and there are interesting comments concerning the mans charachter!
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Andrew

Berkeley Milne seems to have been no-one's favourite in the RN. Jackie Fisher always thought him barking mad and often said so; in fact his first rancorous split with Churchill occurred when the latter promoted Milne & two other admirals for whom Fisher had no regard whatsoever, leaving him apoplectic. As far as I recall, Milne's performance in the Goeben affair a year or two later left his career in tatters, thus proving Fisher (to himself, at least!) right all along - as usual!

I don't think he had much of an opinion of Vice Admiral Sir George Warrender, either, who was involved in naval maneouvres with the Germans off Kiel in the summer of 1914 and who had himself also been with the Naval Bde in the AZW, seeing action at Gingindhlovu.

But then, it wouldn't be difficult to compile a long list of personnel whom he reviled, much in the same way that his opposite number in the army seems to have enjoyed doing.

Peter
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Rich
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Peter..
Regarding "Arky-Barky", weren't there extenuating circumstances with Milne's command behavior in the Goeben affair? He certainly was no Nelson but different from Nelson's day there was wireless which affected tactical manoeuvers in going after the Goeben. Milne like other naval commanders ostensibly could have done better with more initiative in getting into action.
Again, like in the AZW, the kinds of fellows you have in command certainly determine how successful you will be in battle... the right guys have to be doing the right things....things that should be a challenge but a good challenge where there is opportunity for success. I don't know. In hindsight, can we say the British high command could have done better when they placed high-ranking officers in their position? It's ironic. The fellows we find that were saddled with great problems at Isandhlwana arguably look as if they could have handled them better under the circumstances. And to take an adage from football, if your right back is a forward well you're probably of scoring isn't going to be too high!
Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia
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I just got this book and I'm already won over!!!

The pictures, and illustrations on top of the real photos alone made me really happy. This will be a excellent follow up to the "Across the Buffalo" although more in depth of course, it being about one battle.

Mr.Snook is there any plans for a book about the Coastal column?
The siege and relief at Eshowe etc? I think that it would make a excellent addition to you're already impressive 2 titles.

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Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Rich

I must have missed your posting of 26 Jan & have just noticed it. Haven't read much on the Goeben affair for many years (although I still have plenty of books which decribe it) & you may well be right. But Fisher - and, I suppose, Churchill? - didn't take prisoners and once Fisher had marked someone's card I don't think he was likely to change his mind.

Getting back to the AZW, what sort of character Milne was in 1879 I simply don't know. Anyone know of any contemporary material on him? He would undoubtedly be mentioned in a number of naval biographies. (Some of it, perhaps, an antedote to the - presumably - ridiculous rendering of his character in that awful farce known as "Zulu Dawn").

Has anyone climbed to the top of Silutshane (spelling?) in recent years with a telescope of the strength Milne is likely to have had and discovered exactly how much of (and how clearly) he would have seen of the camp? I suppose it would be difficult to be clear about a comparison of atmospheric conditions but it would be useful to know whether he saw much more than a heat haze or whether he had, as Chelmsford insisted, seen the camp very clearly.

Peter
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andrew


Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 4
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Hi Peter

A couple of years ago I was lucky enough to be in the company of Rob Geraad - who took me to the top of Silutshane. A couple of things in this regard - and if memory serves me. (1) There may be some dispute as to the hill itself - wheter Milne was actually on Silutshane (2) A telescope would certainly be neccessary - but one can on a clear day easily see the camp without one. Milne apparently made with some clever remark about how impressed he was with NNC drill - when in actual fact what he was looking at was the Zulu Army. I go back to the issue of not having struck the tents - if the tents had been struck Milne would presumably have seen this. More surprising perhaps - is why they were not able to hear firing from the camp - I believe it was certainly close enough!
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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Johnny H

Thank you very much for your kind words. I have no plans to do a book specifically about the coastal column, nor will I return to the Zulu War for a good few years yet. I am writing two more books at present but on quite different subjects.

Regards as ever

Mike
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Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia
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mike snook 2 wrote:
Johnny H

Thank you very much for your kind words. I have no plans to do a book specifically about the coastal column, nor will I return to the Zulu War for a good few years yet. I am writing two more books at present but on quite different subjects.

Regards as ever

Mike


I broke under the pressure, and ordered your Rorke's Drift book from amazon.co.uk .. seriously B*gger waiting for it lol i want it now!

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Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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Coll
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Mike

I see an Ian Knight has written a review about HCMDB in the March issue of Military Illustrated magazine that I've just obtained.

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Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia
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Coll wrote:
Mike

I see an Ian Knight has written a review about HCMDB in the March issue of Military Illustrated magazine that I've just obtained.

Coll


Do you think you could scan it?
If not, did Ian knight like the book?

I'm curious as he seems to be the "Go To" author on the subject.

-- one thing I noticed, I'm starting to see the reason why people warned me of Adrian Greaves, In Across the Buffalo Greaves most judgemental criticisms is that the British army procedure, befor Islandlwana was to Lager up their wagons and form defensive positions, he states this more then a few times leading up to his description of the battle.

Mike Snook said, that those procedures were not made official untill after the battle and not befor. ---

interesting, I must sound like a complete Noobie.
But really I am only just starting to read past the films Zulu and Zulu Dawn so if I'm only grasping basics hehe bare with me.

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Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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Johnny

I'm sorry, but I'm unable to scan the review.

Yes. He did like the book. Although, as with most reviews of books, he points out a couple of details, which caught his attention.

Hopefully someone else may be able to scan it for you.

Yes. Apart from TWOTS by Morris, which I had bought to get an idea of the whole campaign, it was Ian Knight's books that I mostly obtained afterwards. He is an authority on the subject of the AZW, but I did find that I was glad several other authors covered the subject, as I eventually varied my choice of books.

Recent titles - HCMDB and LWOTF. by Mike Snook. ZV1 and ZV2. by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill. I highly recommend. Well-written and well-illustrated.

Don't worry, you are contributing with good questions and replies.

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andrew


Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 4
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Johnny H

I think it may have been extremely difficult to Laager at Isandlwana given the extent and disposition of the camp. The strategic benefit of the Laager would have been too shorten the defensive perimiter and concentrate fire-power. A defensive square achieves the same effect. In other words almost the same strategic advantage could have been achieved with or without a barrier of wagons. The Laager argument is then perhaps nothing more than to admit that the reason for the loss of the camp was because the British were trying to defend a defensive perimeter far too large for the forces at their disposal.
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Johnny_H


Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia
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andrew wrote:
Johnny H

I think it may have been extremely difficult to Laager at Isandlwana given the extent and disposition of the camp. The strategic benefit of the Laager would have been too shorten the defensive perimiter and concentrate fire-power. A defensive square achieves the same effect. In other words almost the same strategic advantage could have been achieved with or without a barrier of wagons. The Laager argument is then perhaps nothing more than to admit that the reason for the loss of the camp was because the British were trying to defend a defensive perimeter far too large for the forces at their disposal.


I agree totally, I was just saying that I was suprised to find out that one of Adrian Greaves own criticisms was based off of a standard set after the battle at Isandlwana, which he claimed was set before the defeat occured.

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Jolly deadly old boy! (Adendorff) "
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