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helmet plates
karl


Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
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Can anyone tell me what helmet plate was used by Michael Caine and co in the film Zulu , it appears to have Warickshire on it. I am desperate to get good picture of this to have it engraved. Can anyone please help
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Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
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Working on it for you, Karl. I've looked at my posters and stills of "ZULU", but his helmet plate is either unidentifiable or non-existent (as is his helmet, since he's bareheaded). Short of watching the movie on the computer monitor and zooming screen shots (which I'd sure like to avoid), I might be of some help with more input. Drop me a "private message" and we can take it from there. Saw
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Karl,

Having seen some of the helmet plates used in the film Zulu, the plates themselves were the 1878 pattern from various units. The plates' centres were doctored as you say they were inscribed with the word 'Warwickshire', and to my recollection I think there was a knotted bow to the bottom. Added to the centres were various patterns of the Sphinx, some male, some female, not all bore the inscription 'Egypt'.

I have seen a couple of the centres, or at least reproductions of them appear on e-Bay.

John Y.
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ralph dyer


Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 51
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karl,
if you go to my site www.mijndijn.nl you will see the actual helmet plate worn by Michael caine, it is signed by mr john poyner property master from the film zulu. i purchased it in november 2000. regards ralph.

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Ralph
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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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Unfortunately, both Ralph and John Poyner appear to have been misinformed about the origin of the plate (and yes, I know Mr. Poyner worked as property master on the film). Comparison of the helmet plate pictured on Ralph's website with shots of Caine in the film show that there is little or no resemblance between the two.

In the close-up production photo I'm looking at right now (one of those reproduced in my book - I don't have a copy to hand, so I can't be sure of the exact page) the word "Warwickshire" is clearly visible on Bromhead's helmet plate. I can't read the inscription on Ralph's plate, but I'm pretty sure it isn't Warwickshire. Added to that, the designs on the plates are quite different (in the shape of the central Sphinx motif, the size and font of the lettering of XXIV and the surrounding wreath and 'sunburst' design or whatever it is called - I'm no expert). Other images of Bromhead from the film seem consistent with the one I above, so presumably Ralph's plate is of a later design not used in the film.

I will try to forward a copy of the still to Alan and Peter to display on this website if they wish.

Sheldon
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Sheldon,

Having seen Ralph's helmet plate on his website, I think I can concur with you.

I have my own opinion as to the source of the helmet plate, and a possible date of its manufacture.

John Y.
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ralph dyer


Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 51
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well i sit here totally gutted, i actually bought the
plate from john in the year 2000. he assured me it was real and. that Michael had worn it in the film. I'm no expert but, if this is a con then i think its action time. MY GOD i feel so stupid... i got done like a kipper. by some person i trusted.
its a strange situation in so far as.... i talked to martin Baker through email and he told me john poyner was actually sacked from the film set,
i will be honest people, i just give up on everything now. i will close my site and, i am sending the hutchinson letter to ian knight this week via my son,who is here on holiday, i appologise to all in this forum, i would never dream of miss leading anyone. for me it will remain THE FILM the film we all love and i am sorry to all. by the way thankyou sheldon. i have seen many times in here how care must be paramount. i just learned a good lesson.
good luck all.
regards ralph.

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Ralph
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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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I suppose the old motto "caveat emptor" comes into play again...

Ralph, I hope you didn't pay too much for the helmet plate. Unfortunately, there are always people ready to take advantage of fans' enthusiasm. And please don't do anything so drastic as giving up on your website.

What is the Hutchinson letter? (Perhaps I've missed a thread somewhere.)

Sheldon

(Helmet plate as used by Caine in ZULU)
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ralph dyer


Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 51
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sheldon,
at times one must make a retreat and now that about does it. i payed a lot for it. but thats past and its not money, there seems to be no honor even after a person throws all they have to the whole thing, my love of the film remains but, i cannot be more than an observer. the hutchinson letter is a real history piece which i will send to ian knight, its a letter from South Africa dated and has been verified, it is also on my site and i received it from lady Baker. thats at least one thing i have which is genuine. but i cannot keep it as it deserves a home. the imperial war museum London want it but i feel it will find a drawer somewhere. ian wants it and i feel he will make a good home for it. I'm so sorry sheldon. i feel so stupid. being conned is NOT NICE
ralph

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Sheldon Hall


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 377
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Ralph, if it's any comfort (and it may not be), my understanding is that you are not the only one to have fallen victim to this sort of transaction (enough said).

Alan has now added the photo of Caine's helmet plate to my last posting for anyone wishing to make a direct comparison or see the design for themselves.

Sheldon
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helmet plate
karl


Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
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Firstly i would like to apologise for opening a can of worms when posting this question.
I would like to say to Ralph that he should not give up his website.
It is a great tribute to a great man, alot of work has gone into this site, it would be a shame if it were no longer available for people to see.

Ralph don't give up on what you truly love it gives so many people alot of pleasure you only have to look at your guest book.
Best wishes Karl
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ralph dyer


Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 51
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hi karl,
please do not apologise really its not your fault and, you are correct it was a lot of work but its not the first time i have had problems. i guess its better to observe than to get involved and leave myself wide open. the site is closed. if it were not for the distance involved mr poyner would find himself hiring a lawyer, it isn't the money but the principle, for it meant that i decieved people also through my trust in him. well sheldon is correct I'm not the first and, wont be the last to be used. (i say by greedy money grasping users of others hobbies) well it's done now and let that be an end to it.
ralph.

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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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Ralph

I hope that this nasty affair will not destroy your enjoyment of a wonderful film and our internet community.

Buying memorabilia has become a minefield. There are so many good fakes and forgeries out there it is now very difficult to spot a rogue item. We see many items advertised as having been found at Isandhlwana or Rorke's Drift many years ago but how do we know? In almost alll cases it can never be proved so it requires an act of faith.

You did everything right. You had written "authentication" of your item - what is referred to as provenance. 99 out of 100 people would have been satisfied with that.

You will not have been the first to be caught out and will certainly not be the last.

Peter
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Rich
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Just an fyi...
Back in dec of 04, a bunch of Zulu artifacts at auction in England brought in 23000 pounds...nice piece of change. An assegai that came from Rorke's Drift got 2000 pounds. A shield from ulundi also got a very high price. Interestingly, the auctioneer said the fellow who had the collection was so "nervous" he could not attend the auction! Now to juxtapose I'd just like to know how can one prove that an assegai came from RD or a shield from Ulundi? Would love to know how the sellers proved that stuff!
peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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Rich

A number of items in the auction to which I believe you refer were described by the vendor as formerly the property of the Natal Mounted Police Museum. Despite extensive inquiries in South Africa I was unable to find anyone who could recall such an institution.

Peter
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helmet plates
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