rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:10 am

Just to say that the first run of my book about the myths of the Anglo-Zulu War, �A Solemn Mockery�, arrives from the printers next week. Some seven years in the writing, it�s an in-depth look at five areas of the war: Isandlwana, Melvill and Coghill�s flight with the colour, Rorke�s Drift, Ntombe River and the death of the Prince Imperial, and is based on my PhD thesis.
Some of you may have read an abridged version of the Ntombe River chapter in �Soldiers of the Queen� last year. I was honoured to be informed this week that the article was deemed worthy of the Browne Medal awarded by the Victorian Military Society Council for best article of the year.
So, if anyone would like a paperweight or an alternative to the World Cup, it�s available through your local bookseller or Amazon for �14.99. If you�d like a signed copy direct from Fielding Publishing (i.e. me), then I can offer it for �14.50, inc. p&p UK.

Thanks!
Jonathan

�A Solemn Mockery�
by Dr Jonathan Hicks
Fielding Publishing 2006
ISBN 0-9551954-0-3

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:20 pm

Jonathan

Do you have an address for Fielding Publishing ?

Bill

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:34 pm

Hi Bill,

The address for orders is:

17, Caer Ffynnon,
Barry.
CF62 6NS

Cheques payable to 'J. Hicks'.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards,

Jonathan

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:32 am

Jonathan,
I have to ask you to clear any form of advertising before posting in future.
There are plenty of examples where authors have their works 'discussed' on the site but I don't allow direct commercial advertising outside the 'shops'.

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:39 am

Alan,

Sorry about that. I thought that our e-mail correspondence had cleared it up and when you wrote'books' I thought you meant this section.

Apologies,

Jonathan

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:20 pm

Jonathan...would the book be obtainable here in the US? Thanks.

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:40 pm

Hi Rich,

Copies can be posted worldwide. Please PM me off-topic.

Regards,

Jonathan

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:26 am

hi jonathon its phil pearce here the great grandson of Robert jones VC who you mention in your book. I saw the extract of your book in the barry gem ( a free newspaper). Was interested to see that you refer to my ansestor as Welsh! He was indeed born nr Raglan but at that time Monmouthshire was part of England and was til the early 1970's thus making me English as well lol. If you were also to read my Great grandfathers account of the battle he clearly states himself as being part of a band of English soidiers.
I know that this is a bit of a whory old chestnut but sorry My great grandfather was English as stated on his birth certificate. food for thought maybe.
Appart from that i found it interesting if already an over analysed subject matter.
Cheers
Phil

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:29 am

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the information. Yet another Englishman at Rorke's Drift eh? I have read the account you refer to and it's true that there is an emphasis on the 'Englishness' of the defenders in contemporary accounts. The whole topic is, I agree, over analysed, but my interest is in why these myths still remain and indeed flourish.

Regards,

Jonathan

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:30 am

Hi Jonathon ,
hope that you are well and enjoying the start of the school holidays. Although there will be decenters of this following comment I will make it. Not a single Welshman had the V.C at Rorke's Drift. What ever borders are now were not borders then i.e. St Mellons which is now a suburb of Cardiff was In England from the act of union till 1974. I know that my home county was classed as Wales and Monmouthshire not England and Monmouthshire as some will argue but I do remember what my address was as a small child. Having said that however I do like to think of myself as Welsh and considering Roberts dad was born in 1821 in Llanteilo Crosseny Monmouthshire that doesn't sound to English to me lol . Additionally to that you may also wish to bare in mind that Robert Jones has several surviving grandchildern including my mum and Aunt ,so you may wish to get your facts correct in future OK. Maybe I should write to the gem with my observations.

Regards

Phil

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:51 am

Phil, you come across as such a nice person Rolling Eyes

BTW Pearce is actually a Cornish name or originates from that area should i say.

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:55 pm

Phil,

In the context of the 19th century political and administrative structures of Great Britain, given that since their annexation and incorporation into England by the 16th century Act of Union and its revisions, the several non-aligned territories referred to collectively by the English as 'Wales' - an unspecific noun deriving from Old English, and which was used a term of convenience anyway (i.e. rather than referring to some independently acknowledged political entity) - and given further that 'England' and 'English' were in wide colloquial usage at the time as alternatives to 'Britain' and 'British', would you be kind enough to explain to me precisely what 'Wales' and 'Welsh' actually meant in 1879?

Kind regards,

Paul

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:26 am

Dearest scarletto glad to rattle your cage lol. I know that I have a cornish surname. My dad's family moved to Wales in the late 18th century where they settled on the the Brecknock Monmouthshire border. Prior to that from Elizabethian times they hailed from the Portmellon area. Robert Jones' mothers family were originally from Bampton in Devon...etc etc etc or to put it another way I know MY FAMILY HISTORY. Whats more irrespective of your rolling eye emoticon I am generally a decent bloke I just am a tad fed up with folk messing up MY family history (aka not yours). I'm all for interest in the subject just get facts right concerning individual families lol. If in doubt ask the decendents we usually know them! Get things wrong and be preparred to be corrected. Something that constantly happens to me after all we are all human and therefore make errors. On another branch of the family I'm also related to Henry morgan the so called pirate and I can correct a few people there as well but am sometimes proved wrong tee hee. At least I use my proper name on here rather than a nick name .

Where explaining what Wales meant in 1879 ..Well I expected a better argument from you Paul Very Happy

. We have chatted on this before and the simple fact is that Monmouthshire was part of England ...Live with it OK! At the end of the day I don't work in the national library of Wales unlike you and therefore do not have the fountain of knowledge at my finger tips that you do.....I am but a simple public servant that knows where he was born. Wink

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:00 am

Well English or Welsh, i don't think your great grandfather minds, as it was he who fought at Rorke's Drift, and he was the hero. Though probably if it wasn't for this internet or authors, your great grandfather wouldnt be known by anyone.

Interesting you allude to portmellon, as thats where my family also originate from, that and around mousehole/mevagissy area, pearces as well you see. Greatgrandfather was a tin mine foreman.

Regarding my nickname, its an old Army habit, one i had for many years while serving and i kind of kept it for this internet.

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:45 pm

Phil

the simple fact is that Monmouthshire was part of England ...Live with it OK!

I'm trying to make the point that you would be quite justified in arguing that all of 'Wales' (whatever that meant in 1879) was de facto 'part of England'. Why stop at Monmouthshire?

At the end of the day I don't work in the National Library of Wales unlike you

I don't work there either.

So, then, since you expected a better argument from me, allow me to restate the question: if you're going to argue that Monmouthshire was in England - and you are quite entitled to do so - then you are also going to have to define which bits of the contemporary 13 post-annexation counties were 'Wales' and which weren't; and what exactly you mean by 'Wales' anyway. As the late great Gwyn Alf Williams wittily and pointedly asked, ''When was Wales?'' In 1879, what defined a 'Welshman'? Was it birth, language, self-identity - what you considered yourself to be - or what? If birth, then for example Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere was, I suppose, technically a Welshman (unless you feel that Breconshire wasn't in 'Wales' either), whereas Henry Howard Molyneux Herbert, fourth Earl of Carnarvon, descendent of the Herberts of Raglan and through them to the medieval princes of Gwynedd, was most definitely an Englishman. If language, then what do you want to do about the 28.7% of the population of Monmouthshire (yes, Monmouthshire) who in 1879 were Welsh-speaking?

This topic rears its head all too often for my liking and I'm sorry but I just don't see the point. Some of the men from Wales who fought in Zululand in 1879 considered themselves to be Welsh and spoke and wrote in Welsh as well as English; some of them considered themselves to be Welsh and spoke and wrote English but probably not Welsh; lots of them refer to themselves as 'English' and may have meant just that but may also simply have meant that they saw themselves as British. What does it matter? What united them all was that they were soldiers in the British Army. They fought for one another, for their battalions and their regiments and for other reasons besides. I'm sure that many if not most of them were proud of it too.

I vote we all agree to draw a veil over this whole 'English vs Welsh' nonsense once and for all and just concentrate on the history. Any takers?

Regards,

Paul