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Discussions related to the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
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Bill Cainan1


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Lampeter
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, I see we�re back on the Welsh/English debate.

I was born in England, but have lived most of my life in Wales and can speak Welsh. My father was born in Wales and couldn�t speak Welsh. My mother was born in England (and also couldn�t speak Welsh). When I joined the Army my attestation papers said �British (English)�. I served in Kenya and was regarded by the locals as an �English� soldier, but was called �Taff�. Confusing, isn�t it boyo ! I firmly believe that you can use the statistics to prove whatever you want them to prove, and for what ?

Phil � do you have any letters (etc) from your great grandfather which states how he saw himself ? Did he consider himself a Welshman or an Englishman ? I think we should go along with his viewpoint irrespective of the technicalities as to exactly where he was born and whether that was regarded as being part of England or Wales in 1878/9

I think Paul is correct in suggesting a veil be drawn over this topic as it�s a debate that�s never likely to be resolved.

Bill

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Engalnd/Wales/English/Welsh
Rich
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So Bill then how would you describe yourself..Welsh or English? Neither? Both? Irrelevant issue? Don't mind me..just asking since I'll be making my longed for pilgrimage to the UK and Wales and kind of want to get things right as far as heritages, eh? Don't want to perhaps find myself at the bottom of Offa's Dyke for putting my foot in my mouth!..me, I'm from the States, a Yank, an American, etc, etc... Wink
Sean Sweeney


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 185
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Rich,

Probably easier for you to describe yourself as an 'American',

although there is some contention from the rest of the 'Americas' as to this description, and we won't go into the 'Native' American debate, either !

I'm an African, (9th Generation), although born in the Union of South Africa, I claim Irish, British and New Zealand citizenship.
As an African of European origins, however, other 'Black' Africans will no doubt dispute my claim !

Wales and Welsh Nationality, is a lot more trickier, however, over the Centuries, due to the changing nature of it's borders due to Saxon, Norman, and 'English' conquest, and the eventual 1603 Kingdom of Great Britain, after Elizabeth's death, which incorporated both Wales and Scotland.

History has shown that County or pincipality borders have meant little or nothing to their feelings on Nationality.

The Welsh have been fairly unique in still maintaining their language, and a sense of belonging, despite immigration, emigration, and large population movement.... Good on them !

One's own Nationality, despite the birth certificate, the passport, or the country of domicile, is very much a personal thing, and I as a 'Man of Many Faces', (or substitute, passports and countries), can attest to that.

My own views are different to those of my children, who suffer a similar dilemma, as while born in England, they have been brought up and educated in New Zealand, and consider themselves 'Kiwis', absolutely.

I don't think that we, including Phil can speak for our forebears, without any concrete evidence of their own feelings on the matter.
I would imagine also, that in the 19th C, one's Nationality was very much governed by parental guidance, and how one was viewed by the community !
I certainly can't on mine, who were Irish living in Scotland, Irish born in Scotland, Scots born in Ireland, and English, German, Dutch and French by birth, descent, or domicile, incl Cape Trek Boers born in Natal, and lived and died in what has become 'South Africa'.
My parents were both born in the British Colony of Natal, before Union, and became 'South Africans' by default.
Bit of a nightmare, but very interesting to research.
cheers,
Sean
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Bill Cainan1


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Lampeter
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Rich

I consider myself "British".

I think Sean has hit the nail on the head when he makes the point that it is what the individual considers himself to be that is important, and not what others chose to tag him. This is why I asked Phil if he had any documentation from his great grandfather as to what he hinself regarded as his nationality.

And of course, we now have the term ANGLO-Zulu War !!!!

BIll

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Rich
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Very good gentlemen, your overviews were spot on. Now you've put the monkey on my back as well on use of the term "American"! In one sense, I am a "native" American but in the other I'm not! As for Wales, it intrigues me that she can keep the "old" ways considering as to what is going in with emigration and immigration today in the world. Ireland, for example, has seen many changes in its culture and social world and that specifically has been brought on by immigration to its shores.
Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 437
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Paul
I take.
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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Julian whybra wrote:
Paul
I take.


And me. It all gets a bit tedious after a while.
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