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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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I don't have my books handy at present but I seem to remember that there was a fuss made at the time in the local papers that the captured animals were being sold off cheaply to contractors. The N.N.C were in charge of this I believe and I also believe that these were captured from Sihayo. This would mean that there was an extremely quick turmaround with the sales.
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Mike Snook


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 130
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Lord C's escort rounded up quite a few cattle on the 11th (day of the invasion) when they rode north to see Evelyn Wood. Wood's escort got about 200 the same day and took them back north with them.

400-500 goats and sheep were captured at kwaSoxhexe on the 13th. Haven't come across any subsequent reference to them in the sources though.

I suspect captured livestock would have been moved back down the L of C to Greytown or Dundee pretty quickly. Clive, presumably there was a livestock market in Dundee even then?

Coll is quite right to be dismissive of any idea of the Battle of Rorke's Drift being anything to do with cattle-raiding. Frankly I cannot imagine how anybody could even begin to construct an argument around that idea. It was about killing the enemies of the king - all of them - immediately - now - let's go - and the loss of face that these regiments would have suffered had they not become engaged on the same day as the other amabutho had won a great victory. The humiliation would have been unbearable. Imagine the poor old uThulwana having to put up with the taunts from their arch-enemies the iNdluyengwe. Life would have been insufferable for them. That's why RD happened - because the Undi Corps felt they had missed out and they had better do something about it. It was about the ethics of a warrior culture, espirit de corps, macho-ness, impulsivenss, jealousy (of the other regiments) and ego. It was, I would venture to suggest, b**** all to do with cows!


Regards

Mike


Last edited by Mike Snook on Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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I agree with Mike. Not much Kudos in cattle rustling. By the way, I've found that the report I mentioned was in The Natal Witness 22nd January so this shows how quickly the cattle were despatched down the line for sale. Still looking for contemporary reports of livestock being held in any numbers at Rorke's Drift. I haven't found any yet. I think it's a red herring.

Jon
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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The meat contractor R.J. Hall was at Isandlwana on the 22nd January and escaped the massacre with Lt Alfred Henderson. They went with some of the NNMC to Rorke's Drift and then, according to Hall's not very reliable account, stood off while the Zulu attack took place.

The veracity of his account is not the issue, however, it is the fact that a meat contractor was with the 3rd Column, and he probably was the fellow who bought and despatched any captured llivestock. The funds from this enterprise were, as you probably already know, used a Prize Money for the troops.

KIS
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Alekudemus


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Monmouthshire/Gwent
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Frm the Natal Witness account 22nd January.

"Milk cows.... two pounds a head, goats for 2s 6d and sheep for 6s a head. There will be very considerable discontent among all ranks if the bulk of our prize money goes to enrich contractors."

Seems the troops were getting a raw deal. Some things don't change.
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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 437
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Keith
I now know that Robert Hall was not a meat contractor but was a civilian waggon conductor, not that that alters the gist of your point..just for information really.
Mel
I knew i'd seen something about how the Zulus set light to the hospital roof somewhere and have just found it. It's in Millne's account, Manchester Evening Chronicle, 2.12.1905:
"All the afternoon the fight waged, and in the evening the hospital was fired by the Zulus fixing burning bunches of grass on their spear ends aiming at the thatch."
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Johnny Hamman


Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Dundee, KZN
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Hi, all!!

Phew....I see my old colleaugue Pat put his foot, or shall I say, his pen, in it.

Hi, Mel..

if I remember correctly, I think I made mention of Pat's booklet when we emailed each other a while back. I have the book in front of me, as well as his second effort, about the Royal Engineers at Isandlwana. I must confess that a historical work it is not, but it is Pat's theory, and not badly written, if I must say so myself. I do not agree with everything he wrote there, but it is his right to write whatever he pleases, and make a fool of himself, as I have done in the past, and on this forum.

Mike,

I knew you would get involved, and if you have not read his thriller on the engineers, I might start posting parts of it, if you are interested. I will of course quote Pat.

Sean,

I owe you a Majuba article boet. If you want to know what happened to me, blame it on w32 worms and sloppy computer workmanship. I am back on line, and will sent you some of the piece that I could retrieve. I started everybloodything from scratch, and you simply do not want to know!!

Go well, all
Johann (Johnny) Hamman
History's Walk
Dundee
KZN
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Mel


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 345
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Johnny,

Good to see you back.

Yes, I totally agree and I, for one, welcome any opportunity to read other enthusiasts views on all things Anglo Zulu.
My point is, in a forum such as this, all views should be considered because those very views can stimulate other trains of thought and lead to further discussion. (Note the number of views this thread has received.)

Julian
Thanks for pointing out Milne's account.

_________________
Mel
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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Johnny

The Royal Engineers at Isandlwana? One would think that would make for a very short book. I for one would be curious enough to read some snippets, but not at the cost of digging up old cairns. (As it were!)

Just for the record, I don't feel anyone here has ever been taken to task for voicing contrary views but rather for lack of source material to back them up when espoused as fact. Lord knows there is plenty of wiggle room when it comes to the various primary sources and that makes for the many interesting discussions undertaken here. I always appreciate the various deductions derived from them and look forward to more, however one should not lose sight of the need to balance the weight of historical evidence against one's intuitive or informed deduction theories. (As strange as that may sound coming from me!)

Best

Michael
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Coll
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Johnny

With the second book being the Royal Engineers at Isandlwana, dare I ask what mention there is of Col. Durnford ?

Thanks

Coll
armourer
clive dickens


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 162
Location: REDDITCH WORCESTERSHIRE
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Hi All
Pat recently wrote a number of articles on the Royal Engineers at Isandlwana in the Armourer magazine and they where quite interesting
Clive
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askl pat
clive dickens


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 162
Location: REDDITCH WORCESTERSHIRE
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Johnny
If you see Pat will you ask him when he is going to send me his latest book on the RE at Isandlwana the b--er promised me one
Clive
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Johnny Hamman


Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Dundee, KZN
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Hi, all

Clive,

I'll pass your message on. I should see Pat either tomorrow or Thursday.

Coll,

There certainly are more than one mention to Durnford. I quote from the book (p 52)

"As they moved past yet another, low nearly conical shaped hill known as Qwabe, Durnford's men were cursing roundly as they attempted to negotiate the steep erosion gulleys or dongas in the vicinity...Heads whipped up at the pop of distant shots up on the ridge. Frantically signalling blue jacketed (sic) Natal Carbineers could be seen plunging suicidally of the rocky hillside of iThusi Mountain on their left, away from Durnford's force. Then thundering horsemen appeared fleetingly across the top of the ridge in front of him. Durnford might have suspected that they were Raw's men, but he could not be sure. They seemed to be firing wildly from the saddle at something behind them.

Then silence

Except for a distant rumble and a curious murmuring, like the crash of distant surf. Men looked at one another, eyebrows raised and ears cocked as they tried to make sense of it. Durnford looked up at the ridge wondering what the hell was going on.

An enormous wave of little black ants suddenly appeared on the skyline. As soon as they spied the horsemen, there was an almighty clash of of spears on shields and a primeval roar from the six thousand throats of the Zulu left horn, comprising the IngobaMakosi, uMcijo and uVe Amabutho (last word in inverted commas).

The battle of Isandlwana had begun...." end of quote.

As I have said...a historical work it is not, but it reads like a cracking good yarn out of Boys Own, or something.

There are four pages on the adventures of MacDowel and Gamble, which ended in the expletive "Oh, poor.." which I assume was when these guys spied their doom coming towards them. There stops the role of the RE at Isandlwana in this story. It reads like a Steven King, full of action and the most wonderful adjectives, typically Pat.

People like Julian and Mike will immediately shoot this book down in flames, as historically speaking it contains the most fantastic assumptions and flights of imagination, but therein lies the attraction of this little booklet (83 pages). It is full of drama and wonder, and will keep boys awake the whole night, but will stick in any British military historian's gullet.

Whew...!

Anyway, guys...later

Johnny Hamman
Dundee
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Coll
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Johnny

Thanks for the details.

I, like many others, seek the truth regarding the events at Isandlwana and the Anglo-Zulu War 1879 in general. However, I do like a book to read well, exciting and allowing you to visualise the situations being described, just so long as it doesn't stray too far from historical fact.

Always did like a good story, but when you know it actually happened, makes it all the better.

Thanks again

Coll
mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Come on then Lee, I'm dying to hear about the old cat?!!

As ever

Mike
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"What really happened at Rorke's Drift?"
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