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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:32 pm

Hi all

Clive

Did not see Pat today. maybe he will be at the meeting tomorrow.

Coll,

That makes two of us. I have never agreed with all of Pat's theories, as writings like that make it ever more difficult for people like me to make some sense of all of this. You never know who to believe, as it seems that if you place three books on the battle on the table, you will have three different views. That is the most frustrating of having to deal with all the secondary sources at my disposal. I will not denigrate any of the writers, but I will tell them that between most of them (not all, I am sure) they cannot even agree on the company commanders at Isandlwana. Like you, I will love to know what really happened there, as I am sure all of you will.

As far as Pat and his stories are concerned, I will not deny hm his right to write what he pleases. His right to face the music afterwards is, of course, his alone.

In any event, I am still trying to get hold of at least one of Mike's books. New ones are prohibitively expensive, I have been told. I have one passion in this trade, and that is to protect and maintain the memory of all the men who fought and died here, as most of the bunkum dished up about them, are like taking a leak on their graves.

dear me....what is a tour guide to do...?

Anyway...lee..sorry, no news on the cat Smile

Johann (Johnny) Hamman
History's walk
Dundee

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:13 am

Johnny,

I don't know about 'prohibitively' expensive - Amazon.co.uk bang them out at �13.19 and �16-50 respectively. I guess one moves the decimal point about one place to the right for a rough rand equivalent - the price of a good pub lunch for two in RSA (or a mouldy sandwich in the UK!).

Read em! View it as an investment in your own business. Then you won't be in any doubt about company commanders! Even NNC company commanders.

Then you'll be able to put Pat's pamphlet where I put my copy! It did not I fear make it back to my library. Doesn't mean I won't take a glass of cold beer with you Dundee boys next time I'm in town! If invited...and as long as Pat promsies not to try and persuade me he was right all along.

Smile

As ever

Mike

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:02 pm

Mike,

Thanks for that. I never actually thought of amazon. I checked a local site called kalahari.net last year, and your one book sold for almost R400.00. That was a bit rich for me.

Anyway, will check out amazon. I am the curator of the local Moth museum in Dundee, and you are always welcome for a beer. Or two. Or more.....

Thanks for the kind words. Have already filed Pat. Talked to him this afternoon. He was quite unfazed about all the ballyhoo about his books.

Typical Pat....

Greetings
Johnny Hamman
History's Walk
Dundee

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:04 pm

Mike
The trouble is for anyone in South Africa buying from the UK is that the Rand has taken an awfull belting against the � lately which makes it highly exspensive to buy in the UK my sympathies lie with Johnny on this
Clive

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:49 pm

Johnny

As the US Dollar has also taken a pretty severe hit against the British Pound you may want to check Amazon US where both books have been discounted to $23.07, though I'm not sure how the Rand is doing dollar-wise nor how much shipping would run. (Interestingly one can also purchase an older "How Can Man Die Better" by Benjamin Pogrund, subtitled "Sobukwe and Apartheid", there.) Perhaps a large format paperback will become available eventually, reducing the cost even more.

MAB

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:13 am

Johhny

Thank you. I shall take you up on that one day.

As ever

Mike

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:25 pm

Hi, all

Mike,

You're welcome.

Incidentally, guys, have checked the kalahari.net site again. LWOTF now retails for R277.56, and HCMDB for R290.36. So, they have come down somewhat. Still pricy, but better than R390.00

Johann (Johnny) Hamman
History's Walk
Dundee
KZN

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:01 am

Johnny
I have nothing against novels based on Isandhlwana/RD especially if they're well-written and there have been some excellent ones in the past. Fiction is fiction and history is history; there is a place for both (if you include film, a place for all three). The danger lies, as this forum can witness, is when someone confuses one for the other.
Re company commanders, when primary sources are viewed, I have always failed to see how any professional historian with valid qualifications can make glaring mistakes along Cavaye-Porteous/A-E lines - perhaps they've been reading too many novels?

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:38 pm

Julian,

Quite, and there are still some who do. I raised the company commander issue again, because it is not just a case who commanded A or E Coy, but some are even disputing the ranks of these officers. I thought Army Lists would have supplied this info.

I am done reading everything on the subject, and there was much to plough through. Meanwhile, some novels, and I regard all of Pat's work in this category, although well written, will lead you on wild goose chases. I am a military historian and tour guide who only concentrated on the Boer wars and more contemporary conflicts, but the AZW is like a disease, if it gets hold of you, it never lets go. Such a fascinating part of our history, but unfortunately much rubbish have been written about it, and for people like me, who are far from some primary sources (We have some, but not enough!!!) like what you have access to, it is a huge task to get well-versed in the history. I wrote my first post-grad paper on RD some twenty years ago, and today I can only laugh at those efforts. That is what happens when you have to depend on secondary sources like some I have seen. Not to speak of some of my idiot colleagues....

The last word on the AZW has clearly not been spoken

Anyway, I will get at least one of Mike's books, and with this site, I cannot go wrong. IIt seems I already have a reputation to uphold here as far as passion and accuracy is concerned, if what an Australian client told me was true...

Enough. It is raining cats and dogs here again, and with our very high occurrence of lightning, this is not a healthy environment for computers.

later

Johann (Johnny) Hamman
History's Walk
Dundee

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:37 am

Johnny

You can't get further from primary sources than where I am in New Zealand, or Keith Smith in Australia, but we have still managed to obtain material in our quests. I think its just a question of how motivated you are. You are lucky in having access to the sites.

The exchange rate here, perhaps better than SA rand, still makes some books very pricey, but it hasn't stopped me from buying the 'gems' which I cannot do without.

Dawn

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:18 pm

Johnny

I'm curious to know what conclusions you have come to, so far, with regards to the battle at Isandlwana.

May I ask what opinions you have of the participants and of the actual battle ?

Thanks

Coll

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:29 pm

Coll,

Short and simple, I think the events of 22 Jan 1879 is fascinating in the sense of the various mistakes some of the individuals in that fight made. You had very different personalities trying to cope with a situation that deteriorated very rapidly, and the most enduring feeling I have is that those men who kept the two horns from closing for a while, provided the opportunity for others to escape, whether by accident or design, while they could have skedaddled too. They did not, and chose to do the honourable (maybe foolish?) thing to stand and fight it out. Did they know they would have had no chance?

They probably did, but they still stayed. Thoughts of getting away might have crossed their minds, but, and I like to refer to this man, Vereker, they remained and died. My most favourite spot on the battlesite is the Natal Carbineers memorial. I go there plenty times to reflect and wonder about the intestinal fortitude of men like these, and you want to tell their story to all who come by. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall, so to speak, but that is impossible. So, I make do with what I can find, sort out the chaff, and keep on telling the story of brave men.

I was never a big cheerleader of the British Army in Africa, especially SA, as my people fought them to the end in 1899 to 1902, but you cannot deny that what they did at Isandlwana, took guts, and then some.

That is basically it. Pulleine was, I think, an unfortunate man thrusted into a position he could not cope with, and history just took its course. I had some German clients a while back, who were only interested in the fact that the British suffered a big defeat here, but they had no feeling for the last moments of men like these, and I spoke rather sharply to them, telling they are dishonouring the memory of men like Scott and Durnford. It was rather, like taking a leak on someone's grave, I felt.

That is, in a nutshell, how I feel. Tactical discussions of the battle I shy away from. I have my own opinions about that.

Johnny Hamman

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:01 pm

johnny
Small point, but there is no query over ranks, just poor research. Cavaye was a Lieutenant full stop.
By the way, I have a primary source in RSA but can't get access to because the archivist never replies to anything sent her... If you live near Jo'burg, do you fancy chasing it up for me?

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:16 pm

Julian,

Tell me about it...

As far as your archivist is concerned, sorry, cannot help you there. I am in Dundee, in KZn, and about 500km away from Johburg. Anything closer??

Johnny

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:06 pm

Johnny

Thanks for sharing your views.

Coll