rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - BBC HISTORY

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:52 pm

Apparently Maiwand is still very much in the memory of Afghanis:

http://www.warlordsofafghanistan.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22&sid=b1c0507225c8b0367ee07068f24a50b8

(from an article in The Times)

"But certainly her actions were enough to turn her into a national hero where she is still revered today. Schools, hospitals and even a women's magazine have been named after her. It is also a popular girl's name, with Malalai Joya a rare female voice in post-Taliban Afghan politics."

" The Afghans have a grim, semi-secret weapon: a wounded history, in which Britain played a central part that Britain has all but forgotten, but they have not."

http://www.pashto.org/content/view/91/

"...But nobody has forgotten the British. Even a child knows the history," snorted Mohamed Amman, an 85- year-old with a combed white beard, recalling a battle 126 years ago."

http://www.chak-hospital.info/en/

"Malalai medal is the highest award for women in Afghanistan and is named after the national heroine, who took up the flag from an injured Afghan soldier and led the successful attack during the Battle of Mewand against the British in 1880."

As far as Kipling's poem "That Day" and the fight at Silver's Theatre (from "Soldier's Three"), there's this from the Kipling Journal :

http://www.johnradcliffe.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/textfiles/KJ144.txt

"Brigadier Foster supported the improbability of the fight at Silver's
Theatre and could suggest no occasion in his own experience or know-
ledge of the North-west Frontier on which the incident as narrated
might have been based*."

"* Note. But Professor Carrington, in the Journal for December 1959,
Kipling and the Army in India, identifies the fight at Silver's Theatre
with ' the most shocking event of the Second Afghan War ', the defeat
of a British column at Maiwand, near Kandahar, on 27th July, 1880,
described in Hanna's History of the Second Afghan War, ' and nothing
like it occurred anywhere else '. This engagement also provided the
motive for the poem ' That Day '."

For what it's worth.

Best

Michael

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:35 pm

I wrote a short article on Malalai a while ago - it's a page that gets quite a bit of interest from Afghan nationals.

http://www.angloafghanwar.info/biography/malalai.php

Looking forward to your article, Mike! Saw the 'Saving the Guns' painting in the back of the current issue.

All the best -
Garen.

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:01 am

Mike

The painting of 'The Last Stand of the 66th' by Peter Archer is brilliant, having managed to get an enlarged image of it on www.britishempire.co.uk

I'm sure I read that after this engagement, the Colours were never again taken on campaign. Is that right ?

Do you know if they did indeed get carried as far as the last stand ?

Thanks

Coll

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:24 am

People are interested in Maiwand again today because the British are back in the Helmand. The other two routes people usually discover it for themselves is through either Sherlock Holmes (Dr. Watson was fictionally at Maiwand) or through Kipling's 'That Day' - supposedly about the battle (or inspired by it), and he mentions it by name in 'The Men That Fought at Minden'.

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:54 am

Garen

Sorry, in my last post I attributed your article to The Times (meant to put that reference above the second quote). I did find it a very interesting and well done article which, as it turns out, I've also come across a few other times on the web without any reference to it's origin or authorship (mostly in discussion forums). I did however see it on your web site as well and should have connected the two even without a by-line. By the way, keep up the good work and should you wish to add a discussion forum to your site I think many of us here will find even less free time away from our computers!

Best

Michael

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:17 am

Coll

The last time that colours were carried into battle were a year later, during the first Boer war. The 58th carried them at Laing's Nek on the 28th January 1881 where they attracted much attention from Boer marksmen.
Incidently, our own Edward Essex commanded the retreat of the 58th, in his capacity of the sole remaining staff officer.

The colours of the 66th were carried from the battlefield of Maiwand and unfurled in the village of Khig. Here they were defended by about 200 men. They withdrew through the village, loosing men all the time, until they made a final stand in a garden just outside the village. The colours were defended until the last, when they were carried away from the battlefield by the victorious Afghans and were never recovered.

Regards Graham

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:05 am

Michael Boyle wrote:

Sorry, in my last post I attributed your article to The Times...

No worries at all, Michael! The article has been copied around quite a bit as information on Malalai was scare when I wrote it. And many thanks for the kind words.

diagralex wrote:

The colours were defended until the last, when they were carried away from the battlefield by the victorious Afghans and were never recovered..

The Colours rallied the last few of the 66th who made the stand, with Lieutenant Honeywood reportedly holding it high above his head and shouting "Men! What shall we do to save this?" After the Colours were taken, they were supposed to have been taken to Kharan, near Quetta, then elsewhere a couple of years later. The Bombay Grenadiers lost theirs as well, and the 66th received new Colours in 1882.

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:36 pm

Graham/ Garen

Thanks for your replies.

Peter

I managed to find a site containing an account describing the battlefield after the engagement, part of which refers to 'dead camels' and mules, apparently in the area of the baggage train. As well as details of the debris left from the battle - cartridge cases, equipment, etc.

This account seems to be from an officer who visited the battlefield and surrounding area over a period of 3 days.

Coll

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:58 pm

A lot of self promotion on hear I see. Maiwand "forgotten". Who by? Don't see the need to go over it again. The facts are there for everyone to see or read if they so desire. What new aspects of Maiwand can you bring to a table that already overfloweth?

I prefer to read authors who can waken rather than plod.

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:40 pm

Maiwand has only been 'forgotten' as in it's been out of the general public consciousness for a long time, only occasionally surfacing. It is different from the Zulu War - Rorke's Drift especially - which is fairly constantly in the public eye, even if just at Christmas. Very Happy

You're right, there's no need to go over it again, but for those who are interested, or wish to learn about it for the first time, it's good to have information available, and to mention it every now and then.

All the best -
Garen.

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:22 am

Kenty

Good. An expert on Maiwand. Please will you tell me which of the E Battery sub-divisions were commanded by which subalterns. And in which order the companies of the 66th Regiment deployed, and which captain commanded which company and who their respective subalterns were.

M

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:04 pm

Kenty

There has not been a great deal written on Maiwand. If Mike can add to this with a little bit of educated speculation, it will be useful. Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

Leigh Maxwell's is probably the most comprehensive account of the battle but that falls far short of telling the whole story. The number of survivors is not clear, and there are conflicting figures given across various accounts. I cannot recall any private accounts by survivors, soldiers' letters home or similar that have been published. The Isandhlwana archive, by comparison, is incredibly rich and detailed.

Peter

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:20 pm

I don't know fellows....it was about 2600 British against 25,000 Afghans from what I read. Talk about ratios of "attackers" and "defenders'..did the British gerneal there have to fight?...looking forward to read more on this battle!...

As far as a survivor I see a ref to a Sgt Thomas Benjamin Stephenson of the 66th. Not sure if he wrote down anything.

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:20 pm

Rich

He attacked them would you believe! Not a good idea though.

Regards

Mike

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:41 pm

Thank you Mike! Such spunkiness by Burrows! He's the guy who takes responsibility, eh??.. Wink

...
Looking forward to read your piece on a battle I need to learn about!...