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mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Johnny,

I keep my sword safely in the umbrella stand!

As ever

Mike
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MAIWAND
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Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Sittingbourne, Kent
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I have posted a private message for you. However, it is great to hear that someone wants to know about Maiwand. This battle has almost been forgotten yet it was an important event. Maybe not so glam as the Zulu episodes but still an important one.

I think there was a COI but I will continue to get an answer, I am sure there was. The court martials are interesting, I have the papers. Basically the accused officers were hung out to dry by Burrows and Nuttall to take the blame - however it back fired and the officers were acquitted. The Times were certainly abrasive towards Burrows and Nuttall.

I am still working through the papers and hope to publish an article at sometime on the matter. Interesting reading I hope.

Maxwell's book is good, but much of the information is now dated and other facts have imerged. Do get a copy though, try Abebooks, they have copies ranging from about �20 -�40 depending on condition. Also get Robson's book Road to Kabul, it has a good chapter onMaiwand and he disagrees with Maxwell on many points.

There is plenty of artwork on Maiwand. I have lots of prints that Garen Ewing has provided.

Yes I will be visiting the site often and only to happy to discuss Maiwand. I don't have all the answers and I am always willing to learn from others.

Richard
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Richard

Thankyou. I received your message.

I'll look forward to obtaining both titles and reading more about Maiwand, (early) next year and (hopefully) acquiring the BBC History Magazine next month.

It does appear to be time a new book solely about Maiwand should be written, as you say, much of the information could do with being updated, since Maxwell's book in 1979(?)

I would very much like to see some of the participants involved in the engagement, are portrait photographs included in these titles ?

Yes. I've seen some of the artwork and would like to obtain a print of Peter Archer's painting 'Last Stand of the 66th' for framing, but haven't checked yet, to see if it is available to buy.

I'm sure many others will be very interested in this subject and I expect there will be several discussions on various aspects.

In the event of such discussions arising, Alan or Peter may suggest holding them in the Off-Topic Forum. Is that okay ?

So, once I've studied the book(s) to get some more information, I'll maybe be throwing some questions your (and Mike's) way ? Is that alright ?

Thanks again

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MAIWAND
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Joined: 13 Nov 2006
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Location: Sittingbourne, Kent
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I would certainly urge you to purchase the books in order to acquaint yourself on Maiwand. I am sure Mikes article in BBC History Magazine will be very good and give a good and broad outline.

There are many websites of interest here are few :

www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns
www.britishbattles.com/second-afghan-war/maiwand.(Excellent site)www.britishbattles.com/most-massacred. (Has excellent artwork)
www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/search/LessonsLearned/afghanistan/maiwand
www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/maiwand
www.military-art.com
www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/poems/lpgeleven

These should keep you going for a while. There is a website that has portraits of those in the 66th Regiment who were killed. Can't find the address at present but will let you know when I find it.

Quite happy to hold discussions in any forum you would like to hold them.

Hope the above is of use and interest.

Richard
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Richard

Thankyou. I meant to keep a list of the sites I had viewed when checking for details about Maiwand. I do however recall a site where a few of the casualties and portrait photographs of men from the 66th were listed. Interestingly, 3 or so appeared to have been identified as being in the very last stand. But I can't find it again to verify.

I will indeed view the sites you mention, so that I can go into the new year, with a bit more knowledge about Maiwand.

Did you happen to see the account by Baden-Powell(?), describing his visit afterwards to the battlefield and surrounding areas over a 3 day period ? Makes interesting reading, although only a few paragraphs in length.

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Further to the above.

Portraits and details of some of the officers killed at Maiwand -

www.regiments.org/wars/19thcent/78afghan.htm#casualties

Hope I've marked out the website address right.

Go down to 'Forces and Casualties' and click on 'Officers Killed - Infantry'.

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Baden-Powell's account -

www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-memories8.htm

Go down to the last 6 paragraphs.

Don't know if either of these sites are of any help, but thought I'd just get them marked on the topic for easy reference.

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Garen


Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 34
Location: UK
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Mike - just read your article in BBC History magazine. Well done, excellent - should raise its profile a little!

Many thanks for a good read.

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MAIWAND
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Joined: 13 Nov 2006
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Mike

Excellent piece on Maiwand in the BBC History Magazine. Written in your own superb style it puts the events of Maiwand in a nutshell. Shame you were not given more space eh!

I am sure your article will encourage more people to look at Maiwand more seriously now. Well done that man!

Richard
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Mike Snook


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 130
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Thanks chaps. You're too kind. Very Happy But your right about word count Stackers. It's murder making sense of anything against that sort of limit. I tried to convey as much additional info as possible in the map, but there's only so much one can do.

You'll be glad to know there's a good 27,000 words in the Maiwand Chapter of Into the Jaws of Death. With some new stuff about the 66th.

Regards as ever

Mike
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Garen


Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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I think everyone on this board can appreciate how difficult it is to write the story of a battle and look beyond dry tactical facts. You managed to entwine the human element very naturally, and also emphasising (perhaps?) a complicated side to it: focusing on a young muslim soldier fighting for the British, maybe against his deeper conscious. They must have had doubts. I'm sure you'll know about the pathans who fired warning shots from within their own ranks at Peiwar Kotal.

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a.j


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Thornaby-On-Tees, Great Britain
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Very well detailed article, and extremely well researched.
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The Scorer


Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 338
Location: Newport
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I've just read Mike's article about Maiwand in the BBC History Magazine, and I found it very interesting and informative. It re-inforced my opinion that we've just never learnt from our history of failure in that country - will we ever?

Anyway, on a lighter (?) note, I wondered why there wasn't a mention of one of the more celebrated (fictional?) characters who was wounded during the battle. I refer, of course, to John H Watson MD, who was (according to his own account) "attached to the Berkshires, with whom I served at the fatal battle of Maiwand. There I was struck on the shoulder by a Jezail bullet, which shattered the bone and grazed the subclavian artery. I should have fallen into the hands of the murderous Ghazis had it not been for the devotion and courage shown by Murray, my orderly, who threw me across a packhorse and succeeded in bringing me safely to the British lines."

Of course, there has been much speculation about the exact whereabouts of Watson's wound. Some of the Sherlock Holmes books refer to an "injured leg" rather than a "wounded arm", and there is also a reference to the "tendo achillis" as being the site of the injury. It is possible that there were two wounds .... but as one biographer of Sherlock Holmes has pointed out, "Holmesian scholars have not always been eager to accept simple answers".

Although most of this may (or may not be?) fiction, there is one part of it which apparently isn't. I understand that the orderly Murray was awarded the Victoria Cross in the First Anglo-Boer War at Elandsfontein after again rescuing a wounded comrade under fire. A strange blend of fact and fiction, then?

Incidentally, I'm not having a go at Mike for missing this out of his article! I'm sure that he'll know who I am from my name, as we do go back a few years although we've only recently made contact again due to the publication of his books. I am looking forward with interest to reading his next books - I'm sure that they will be as good as the first two (flattery never does anyone any harm!).
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I didn't yet get a chance to read Mike's article... hoping I will though... Anyway, I've been reading a bit on Maiwand and found it very intriguing and interesting so much so that I'm waiting for those new books. In reading of the battle, and on the focus of how commanders fight, I asked myself if Chelmsford was there would he have moved up the infantry to "support" Maclaine's guns as Burrow's did? Under analysis, that move exposed the whole army to those resulting flanking manoeuvres by the enemy army. The British had a tough fight there....wonder if they had a chance to win under the "hot" circumstances.
Alan
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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That Day by Rudyard Kipling
(the poem Kipling wrote to commemorate the experience of the 66th Foot at the Battle of Maiwand).

It got beyond all orders an' it got beyond all 'ope;
It got to shammin' wounded an' retirin' from the 'alt.
'Ole companies was lookin' for the nearest road to slope;
It were just a bloomin' knock-out -- an' our fault!

Now there ain't no chorus 'ere to give,
Nor there ain't no band to play;
An' I wish I was dead 'fore I done what I did,
Or seen what I seed that day!

We was sick o' bein' punished, an' we let 'em know it, too;
An' a company-commander up an' 'it us with a sword,
An' some one shouted "'Ook it!" an' it come to sove-ki-poo,
An' we chucked our rifles from us -- O my Gawd!

There was thirty dead an' wounded on the ground we wouldn't keep --
No, there wasn't more than twenty when the front begun to go;
But, Christ! along the line o' flight they cut us up like sheep,
An' that was all we gained by doin' so.

I 'eard the knives be'ind me, but I dursn't face my man,
Nor I don't know where I went to, 'cause I didn't 'alt to see,
Till I 'eard a beggar squealin' out for quarter as 'e ran,
An' I thought I knew the voice an' -- it was me!

We was 'idin' under bedsteads more than 'arf a march away;
We was lyin' up like rabbits all about the countryside;
An' the major cursed 'is Maker 'cause 'e lived to see that day,
An' the colonel broke 'is sword acrost, an' cried.

We was rotten 'fore we started -- we was never disciplined;
We made it out a favour if an order was obeyed;
Yes, every little drummer 'ad 'is rights an' wrongs to mind,
So we had to pay for teachin' -- an' we paid!

The papers 'I'd it 'andsome, but you know the Army knows;
We was put to groomin' camels till the regiments withdrew,
An' they gave us each a medal for subduin' England's foes,
An' I 'ope you like my song -- because it's true!

An' there ain't no chorus 'ere to give,
Nor there ain't no band to play;
But I wish I was dead 'fore I done what I did,
Or seen what I seed that day!

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BBC HISTORY - MAIWAND
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