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Victoria Cross Heroes
Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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The first of a three-part documentary, Victoria Cross Heroes, is on Five TV on Sunday 19 November 2006 at 8 pm. The programme should feature four of 24th Regt VCs from the AZW.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear All,

Now have more information:

Sundays Channel 5 at 8 pm

1. November 19th - The Modern Age

2. November 26th - The Great War

3. December 3rd - The Empire

So it looks you have to make a note in your diary for 3rd December.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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a.j


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Thornaby-On-Tees, Great Britain
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The 3rd of December is correct and it is true that there will be a special mention about Rorke's Drift.

http://www.five.tv/programmes/victoriacross/
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Just seen episode 2 about the Great War.

Why do I get upset when the narrator keeps saying 'XXX won a VC' as if it is a game or a lottery. War is a serious business - All these gallant men were 'awarded' a Victoria Cross.

And they keep referring to it as a 'medal' - it is a 'decoration' - Britain's highest award and is placed before all other decorations and medals.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
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Wasn't episode three ill-researched? Or I'm I just being too picky?

A blond John Chard, wearing a post-1881 tunic. A balding, dark-haired Harry Hook. Fred Hitch referred to as a petty criminal. Melvill & Coghill shown after their death but still with a horse, artistic licence over fact, and voice-over that mentioned their deaths at Rorke's Drift.

As for the depiction of the Zulu warriors, let's not even go there!

The portrayal of the events at Colenso was equally bad! Freddie Roberts was wearing a lancers or hussars tunic, not bad for a K.R.R.C. officer. It was lamentable that the costume department were obviously unaware that Roberts & Walter Congreve, of the Rifle Brigade, should have been wearing black buttons of their respective Rifle regiments, not to mention black Sam Brownes.

This programme had the potential to make a wider audience aware of the facts behind the men and the decoration, but in my opinion it was squandered.

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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I Agree
clive dickens


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 162
Location: REDDITCH WORCESTERSHIRE
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Sad
John
I completely agree why cannot thes advisers get these most important things correct they are supposed to be experts far from it I would say on these showings.
Clive
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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John

I usually get barracked by my family for continually finding fault with such things but I allowed my 10-year old son to stay up & watch it, only for him immediately to spot two of the errors you mention. While I sat there fairly relaxed at the series of errors in the programme (I'd have been much more critical had it been a book) I now fear for my boys, and wonder if I have raised another generation of pedantic nitpickers ...! Wink

Peter
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eric


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Location: St albans Herts
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Question I too saw the documentary last night and two things spring to mind regarding the Zulu wars. Firstly why was there no mention of all the recipients of the Victoria Cross in regard to Rorke's Drift. Why was only Chard, Hook and Hitch mentioned. They did give the total number but without any mention of the other VC awardees.

Secondly after seeing the ultimate sacrifice of the Irish soldier blowing himself and all the ammunition and gunpowder up in India and not receiving any mention or award posthumously of the Victoria Cross leads me to ask a very delicate question which I do with the greatest of respect. The act of attempting to save the Colours while riding away from the furor of Isandlwana and certain torturous death in my mind, and I must stress in my mind, does not seem a particular act of valour enough to suffice the award of the Victoria Cross although without doubt these were two brave and gallant officers. Does anyone agree with me on this? Again I would like to stress that the fact of them being brave soldiers is not in question.

Eric

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Phil Pearce


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Pyle South Wales
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I noticed that not all V.C awadees were not mentioned either just the more colourful ones. However i would also like to mention that at the ceremony at westminster for the 150 anniversary of the V.C not all decendents were informed of this nor invited!! This includes surviving grandchildren of Robert Jones , yet great great grandchildren of others at Rorke's were there! Could someone on here kindly explain this oversite or put me in touch with someone who can . Surely the grandchildren of RDVC awardees should take preference there are at least 4 where Rob jones is concerned you know.
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Michael Boyle


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 595
Location: Bucks County,PA,US
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I imagine the the continual misuse of 'winning' a medal or decoration as opposed to being 'awarded' one has more to do with sports' history than the history of warfare, 'winning' being more of an identifiable term to the average viewer. The average viewer being the bread and butter of broadcast television would also account for the many lapses in historical accuracy where 'flash' will win over authenticity every time. Having said that I hope it makes it to DVD anyway so I can see it too, accuracy of content being more important to me than accuracy of period dress detail. I too would prefer to be presented with both, just don't send me the production bill! Best case scenario is that many thousands of viewers came away with some new appreciation of the sacrifices involved then and now.

Eric

The question you raise has a long history of contention (more recent than actually historical). If you check back through the previous topics here you will find much to contemplate. The Colours (or Colour in this case as the 1/24th Regimental Colour was not present) are sacrisanct to any military organization, particularly the 24th who had lost or been forced to destroy their's previously. The annals of the highest awards granted by every country are replete with instances of those granted for 'Saving the Colours'. As gazetted at the time they would have been awarded the Victoria Cross had they lived and decades later after full vetting they were.

Best

Michael
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Coghill and Melville
Simon Rosbottom


Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 287
Location: London, UK
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Eric,

My understanding of the events (I'm sure that others will correct/verify where I get it wrong) at the drift were that Coghill had already crossed to the Natal bank of the Buffalo and could be considered in a place of relative safety - on his horse. Further, he could not walk properly having injured his knee previously. His decision to re-enter the river from safety to assist Melville, whilst knowing that if he lost his horse he would be stranded, showed the courage and desire to put others before yourself that was rewarded with the VC.

Further, these two officers (one effectively lame) were exhausted yet managed to assist each other further to walk/crawl/stumble up a steep bank some 400 yards from the river. I was surprised how far from the river they actually reached.

That established, the question we should consider is - would Victorian Britain have allowed one officer to receive the medal and not the other for effectively the same act?

I can understand why you can take the view that Melville was simply leaving the field albeit with the colours and beyond that didn't do anything beyond that.

Regards

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Simon
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear Phil,

Just make sure your name and interest is registered with:

VC/GC Association
Horse Guards
Whitehall
London SW1A 2AX

for any future events.

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Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
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eric


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Location: St albans Herts
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Re: Melville and Coghill's VC

Thanks for clarifying the situation with regard to the above VCs and I now understand that it was for actions at the river and not the fact of them riding away from Isandlwana that was the reason for their being awarded.

I have been lucky enough to visit their grave and was also amazed the distance they had travelled from the river up a steep incline. On my visit one thing I did find strange was the amount of trees and vegetation on the hillside compared to the photograph taken in the early part of the century as displayed in Washing of the Spears.

Eric

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Extremely disappointed.

A subject such as this should have taken a more serious interest in presenting the actions these brave individuals were involved in, as the gritty, dangerous, life-threatening and heroic deeds that they were.

Not little segments of inaccurate and empty scenes portrayed poorly and with almost no appreciation of the situations these men found themselves in.

It would have been better if military historians and experts detailed the events, perhaps showing more portrait photographs/paintings, rather than try to act out the situations.

Sometimes just talking about such incidents in detail, let you imagine the actions more clearly and accurately.

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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Eric

Yes, one might almost say that each was awarded the VC for risking and giving his life to save a brother officer, with Coghill going back for Melvill and Melvill assisting Coghill up the steep bank, which he could not have negotiated easily with his crocked knee. This in addition to Melvill being asked to (or possibly taking it upon himself to) save the Colour and - as it transpired - try to cut his way through the pursuing enemy encumbered by the heavy and unwieldy Colour and not to let it slip, even when the jettisoning of such a load would greatly have improved his chances of survival.

That Victorian officers repeatedly risked and sometimes lost their lives to save Colours suggests they considered the embodiment of the regiment's honour more important than a life and, at times, possibly more important than the outcome of the battle. The authorities of the time would therefore make their judgement by the accepted standards of the time.

Yes, much of Zululand is covered in trees and scrub where once it was open grassland or rocky soil.

Peter
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Victoria Cross Heroes
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