rorkesdriftvc.com Forum Index


rorkesdriftvc.com
Discussions related to the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
Reply to topic
Rich
Guest

Reply with quote
Honor...I'd think those fellows who are awarded the VC in a way have the lines of Henry V at Agincourt in their heads...

"If we are marked to die, we are enough
To do our country loss, and if to live
The fewer men, the greater share of honor.......

Rather proclaim it Westmorland through my host
That he which hath no stomach to this fight
Let him depart, his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse.
We would not die in that man's company
that fears his fellowship to die with us......

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"
John Young


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Lower Sheering, Essex
Reply with quote
Peter,

Sounds like you have raised another generation nitpickers! I take it you had the television in for the cricket! Let's not dwell on that!

Clive,

I assume the same adviser got Evelyn Wood's medals wrong! As well as having 1st 24th's Regimental Colour uncased at Isandlwana!

Eric & Phil,

In my opinion the programme did a great disservice to the other Rorke's Drift V.C.'s in failing to mention them.

John Y.
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
Reply with quote
The TV Private Hook would have keeled over from an excess of pies I suspect. The real Harry must have been fit, strong, quick on his feet and have had lightning quick reflexes.

M
View user's profileSend private message
Respect.
TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
Reply with quote
Dear All,
I think Martin's comments hit the nail on the head about this series.
I called C5's 'viewer's comments' and dealt with a most helpful young chap called Craig who kindly listened to my gripes about the programme for some half-an-hour (You can call them on 0845 7050505).Craig gave me the address of Empire Media Productions who were commissioned to produce the programme for C5.
Needless to say,my bid to get Empire Media to reply to my 'enquiries'
by leaving messages on their telephone answering machines on Monday,Tuesday,Wednesday and Thursday has so far failed to ellicit a response.Empire Media can be contacted on 0207 802 9500 if anybody decides to try their luck.In the meantime,I shall patiently continue to pursue my enquiries with them.
View user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website
My 2 pence worth .
Sapper Mason


Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 333
Location: ANGLESEY
Reply with quote
Once i receive the recording( s ) of the Channel 5 VC programmes i will have a more objective critque of the three sections on the history of the VC. In this forum we look towards the Zulu war with more emphasis than say the First World war or as some pundits prefer , " The Great War " .

If TV producers are to make these sort of programmes in the future i suggest they get " us " to do the research ! , too many examples of incorrect uniforms , and the like crop up too often , close enough is not good enough . No mention of Dalton , the real architect of the defence on Jan 22nd 1879 , i could go on at length . As Tony Jones, the descendant of William Jones VC has stated there are points of contact to engage to put across the errors not only in the Zulu War section but by all accounts other sections as well . The majority of WW1 was butchery in khaki and i am not qualified to comment on 1914 - 1918 .

The forum is buzzing again on a topic close to our hearts , perhaps those with great knowledge on the Zulu War in particular will contact the programme makers and put them right or will this half - hearted approach to research and the facts be allowed to pass into the annals of tv ( nearly got it right ) history ? , Graham . Confused Confused Confused
View user's profileSend private message
Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
Reply with quote
Dear Graham,

The programme makers were supplied with all the correct information and images on the AZW VC holders prior to production. However, they had their own agenda - and used none of material. We only think that the 'author' of the associated book had a greater influence over the content of the programmes. I believe the book is on the same level.

_________________
Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website
Lee Stevenson


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 48
Location: England
Reply with quote
You can also leave 'feedback' about Michael Ashcroft's book and presumably the TV series on this website;-

http://www.victoriacrossheroes.com/index.html

(Feedback is listed at the bottom of a couple of pages)

You never know they might even reply.....or not....

Lee
View user's profileSend private message
donno


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Lincolnshire
Reply with quote
I'm new to the forum so please bear with me. I too was disappointed with Victoria Cross Heroes. Dalton should've been mentioned in the Rorke's Drift part. He's the one who got them to stay and organised the defence mainly plus his heroics during the fight. To omit Bromhead when mentioning Chard is a disgrace really too.

_________________
SEDonnison
View user's profileSend private message
Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
Reply with quote
But you have to remember it was a production promoted by Lord Ashcroft and his collection.

_________________
Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website
peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
Reply with quote
I feel rather odd that I have to stick up for a multi-millionaire but since no one else will and in the British spirit of fair play here goes....

For many years Lord Ashcroft was criticised for not revealing anything about his collection. And he was not obliged to. During this period, he loaned some of his VCs for public exhibition and display, without personal benefit as far as I am aware.

Yes, the VC series had its faults but it was it was targeted to appeal to as many people as possible. There have been 1,351 winners. How do you condense those stories into 3 hours of TV (including adverts) without cutting some corners? I suspect that he/his foundation had little or no influence in the reconstructions.

OK, a simply yes or no question. On balance, has the programme encouraged or reduced interest in the VC? Museums such as Brecon should benefit from the interest in the medal.

Anyone who thinks that Lord Ashcroft is doing it for commercial gain should think again. Any profits from the sale of the book will be negligible compared to his overall wealth. And he's not looking for a pat on the back either; he already has a peerage.

I don't know why he attracts such opprobrium. Give the guy a break.

Peter
View user's profileSend private message
Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
Reply with quote
Peter,

I was making the point that the selection of VC recipients was largely based on the Ashcroft collection. Obviously individuals will have their own views as to more worthy candidates. I believe that John Young and I where making the point that the production team did contact us - and wanted information and guidance instantaneously which we supplied ensuring its accuracy and in the event they did not appear to listen to our advice. As you say those who wish to obtain the true story should come to Brecon - or even visit Rorke's Drift.

Can we have an agreement on this site - in recognition of the great gallantry display by both sides on 22/23 January 1879.

A Victoria Cross - is a 'decoration' not a medal
and Britain's highest - it ranks higher than a Knight of Garter.

A holder of the Victoria Cross - is not 'winner'.
You are awarded a VC or decorated/invested with a VC, but never, never Pte Jones won a VC. It is not a competition. It is a very tangible recognition of extreme gallantry by an inidividual soldier in the face of the enemy.

_________________
Martin Everett
Brecon, Powys
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website
Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
Reply with quote
I only caught the third instalment after Martin flagged it up recently so can only comment on that one, but agree with Peter that - as it was clearly made for a very general audience - it probably did its job and informed and entertained its watchers adequately.

I would think it virtually impossible to make any programme on a military theme without compromising somewhere on strict detail (uniforms, biographical facts etc) unless the prime object is to be 100% factual, which - in this case, with all the dramatised sequences - was clearly not the aim. And as they chose only a couple or so Crimean or Mutiny VCs to highlight and then a couple or so AZW VCs, while already having spent some time emphasising the origins of the VC and the unusually high 11 awarded for R/Drift, one can hardly criticise the makers for not mentioning any others, with 1,340-odd to choose from! There is absolutely no reason why anyone other than Chard, Hitch or Hook had to be mentioned by name, just as any other three among that eleven could have been chosen instead, although when they described the improvised defences I must admit I expected them to mention Dalton's contribution.

As it was only a TV programme - something far more ephemeral, surely, than a book - I would lower my standards of expectations considerably and be less critical. The prime question for the makers is "will that make 'good TV'?" not "is this 100% accurate?" We can rail against that policy as much as we like but we'll never change the attitude of TV makers. There is an agenda - not to mention preconceived but erroneous ideas! - and the makers' knowledge of the topic is often pretty limited as they will shortly move on to something entirely different , and they seem to get their way with contributors by hook or by crook. A symptom of this may be their ignoring the offered input from Martin & John. I've assisted and appeared in TV programmes for BBC both locally and nationally and on every occasion have been less than impressed (to put it mildly) with the makers' grasp of the basic facts, but this daunts them not one bit and they are very keen to get the historian to fit the agenda by putting words into one's mouth. Unless you dig your heels in, it is very easy indeed to give in and to feel compromised afterwards, especially as you have no control over the editing.

Bearing all this in mind, for a general programme of not too deep a nature, I thought the third VC programme was more or less OK. Much more off-putting for me - especially with the Crimean/Mutiny VCs - were the dramatised sequences, which leave me wondering how much was biographical fact and how much was fiction. I don't see the need for this - if you want a play, do a play, if you want a documentary, do one. (I recall seeing a recording of the Ian Knight/Ian Castle programme about three years ago, which I thought was excellent factually with good photos, only to be spoilt by strange, modern footage of re-enactment chaps wandering across the screen). Ditto for this VC programme. Having only acquired a TV set for the first time recently (& having no wish to keep it when The Ashes are done & dusted in January!) I notice that this seems to be the "done thing" for all these sorts of programme, but how they can then call it a documentary defeats me. They're all pretty lightweight and OK for relaxation when too tired to read, but having presented everything on such a "dumbed down" level, are surely not to be taken too seriously. Fine, perhaps, for introducing newcomers or children to a particular topic, which is how I would class the VC programme I saw.

Peter

P.S. Before this broadcast I was not aware that Ashcroft's collection was to be displayed in a public museum, so that's good news.
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
Coll
Guest

Reply with quote
Peter

That's where I think the series was as fault. The acted-out scenes were not necessary and were the 'weakest link' of the series.

I'm not one to judge on the collecting of VCs by a private owner, but it is a duty to those who were awarded them and their descendants for to be portrayed accurately.

Films may take artistic licence with details, but what is meant to be a serious documentary - can't. Or at least, shouldn't be allowed to !

Coll
Rich
Guest

Reply with quote
Re: Lord Ashcroft...

I know he is a collector of VC medals. Apparently, he's amassed many and spent a fortune to get them. However, I've read that what he will not do (this is supposedly what he said) and that was the fact that those medals will never be sold again on the open market. In the future, the medals he has will be permanently placed in a museum so that they could be viewed by everyone. That is a good thing is it not? It looks as if Ashcroft isn't looking at the pecuniary interest of holding onto the medals and putting them back into auctions where it's sold to the highest bidder.

Also, I've noticed that the VC medals when they do go on sale fetch varying prices. It is obvious then that value judgments are made by those bidding when evauluating a physical object that symbolizes an act of bravery. I don't know. Should that be the case when it comes to VC's?
Is it true that an act done at Gallipoli should bring more for a medal than say at another battle where heroism prevailed?
donno


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Lincolnshire
Reply with quote
I think Ashcroft has been shocked by the flak he's had concerning his VCs. He's backtracking now and given into to the outcry. I think Norman Jackson's son was dismayed Lord Ashcroft snapped up his dad's VC. But now the latter is suddenly saying he wants them displayed which he should've said all along

_________________
SEDonnison
View user's profileSend private message
Victoria Cross Heroes
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All times are GMT  
Page 2 of 4  

  
  
 Reply to topic