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TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
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Dear All,
Lee Stevenson,above, lists Lord Ashcroft's website which features a facility to voice an opinion about his book.I sent in an 'enquiry' a few days ago,but the jist of the facilty is that comments will be read,but no indication is given as to whether they will be replied to or not.Maybe we could ask why it has took so long for the collection to come on display.Should an individual who has worked hard enough to possess the wealth to purchase such a collection be morally obliged to put them on display,or is he entitled to view them at his leisure without reference to anybody else.
It's always hard to pin-point the motives behind any decision that an individual makes.The reason's Lord Ashcroft quotes as to his motive to purchase the Victoria Crosses is to keep them in the country.This is a worthy aim.Is it intelligent use of wealth to purchase 142 Victoria Crosses,I like to think it is when a person has enough money to do so.Much better than say a footballer or popstar who 'squanders' money on fripperies.
We can also ask ourselves what we would do if we were in a similar positions.My own opinion (and that is all it is) is that these medals should be on display in the relative museum,their true spiritual home.The opinions will vary between collector,museum curator and descendants.If a contributor to this site would have had sufficient means to bid for,say,for 716 Private Robert Jones's Victoria Cross,would you then donate it to Brecon.
Another issue which needs to be addressed is that when the Ashcroft collection is eventually made available for public view,what security measures will be put in place to ensure their safety.

Tony.
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Rich
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Tony...

I'm not sure but does Ashcrot hold your forebear's medal? If so, why not write the fellow. Ask him to donate it to Martin Everett's house at Brecon. (we won't see Ashy on the dole, eh??). What could he say? Yes, no, maybe. Who knows what could be in the offing with a question?...Wink...
Trying to Keep Up with the Jonses.
TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
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Dear Rich,
it's 716 Robert Jones's Victoria Cross that Lord Ashcroft has,with the descendant being Phil Pearce who contributes to this forum,my ancestor being 593 Private William Jones VC.Phil mentions about how his family were 'outbid' by Lord Ashcroft at auction for Robert's Victoria Cross.This must have been heartbreaking for the family.However,I think the preferred route,irregardless of who it was eventually bought by,should have been to automatically donate to Brecon.There are some families that still have their ancestor's Victoria Cross in their possession (from other campaigns).It can also be debated if this decision is pertinent to the greater cause or should these Victoria Cross also be in museums for all to see.I think if Phil maybe sent a message to Lord Ashcroft,via the link mentioned by Lee Stevenson,it would be an interesting exercise to see if he gained a reply.In fact,I would encourage 'all' contributors to this site to send a message via the link.Whilst there maybe some difference of opinion between experts and contributors to this site,on occassions (my category is 'contributor'!),at least everybody still speaks to each other.I find sometimes when you don't get a reply from an enquiry that it leaves you with a feeling of dissappointment.As of today,I am still waiting for my reply about my general enquiries about the collection.

Tony.
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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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Tony

At the risk of being barred from Brecon and other museums......can I put a counter-argument.

We have seen in recent years a number of VCs sold by the recipients themselves to improve their quality of life and that of their families. Other recipients have chosen not to will the decoration to a museum, but to leave it to their descendants. Sometimes the descendants decide that they cannot afford the insurance or provide the security for the decoration, and that it will be sold.

I don't think that there should be any moral pressure on the descendants to give a VC away or to accept less than it is worth. That seems iniquitous to me.

However, any institution could be given first opportunity to acquire an item at the prevailing market rate, so the family do not lose out financially, unless that is what they choose.

Can I also repeat the point in an earlier thread that Lord Ashcroft is proposing to display the original VCs. Security would not be an issue at the venues being considered. There are very, very few institutions which display original VCs.

Peter
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Have to agree, Peter. Apart from theft or some anomalous occurrence, VCs are usually on the market because at some stage in their history they have been sold by the recipient or a later owner, who would - in most cases - be family. Many have been through several hands since, each purchaser no doubt treasuring its history while in their hands.

They may have been sold because of avarice (but in very few cases I'd think) or because the recipient or his widow or children were "down on their uppers." But it is a free country and if they flog it they flog it, for better or worse. Thankfully, they'd then be better off financially and, as a bonus, the decoration will have gone to someone who appreciates and treasures it. But the recipient's pride in being a VC or, in later generations, his family's pride, need not be diminished one jot, as their relative's deed cannot be expunged from history. In fact, every time it is resold the story will be publicly told again, at the auction and in the papers.

It would be nice if every recipient or his family decided to donate the VC to the regimental museum. Or even if a purchaser did. Nice, but not necessary, and certainly no purchaser - Lord Ashcroft or humble collector -should feel bullied into thinking he/she has done anything wrong and that the "only" place for the VC would be the regimental museum. It would be nice - but that's all. It is a free country, remember. Here in C'bury the Buffs Museum proudly displays six replica VCs alongside their respective histories, which are no less inspiring for not having the originals. I don't know if they have the original but if they do they can't risk displaying them.

Where would one stop? With the DCM? Or the MC or MM? More recently than the AZW, my grandfather was recommended for the VC but ended up with the DCM. Someone, somewhere in the world, owns this DCM (as well as his QSA & KSA medals). I have not the slightest doubt they treasure it because they have paid a pretty penny for it, as did the previous owner, but it is no use my belly-aching about it because it looks as if my cousin flogged it the moment grandfather Ewart's only daughter popped her clogs a few years back. It would be nice to see it and to hold it for a moment, but it is just as safe as if I had it, and - more to the point - the present owner has done absolutely nothing wrong. Quite the opposite - once it has left the family's custody, the free market in VCs, DCMs or other decorations will ensure their safety and survival in perpetuity.

My father was one of Wingate's original Chindits but I couldn't tell you where his Burma Star is. It has gone and I don't suppose it will come back. Life is short - I'd love to hold it but surely there are better things to put all our limited energies into than trying to undo what is done? Another thought - on average the AZW VCs would have around a few hundred direct descendants each by now, not to mention the thousands of close but slightly more "peripheral" relatives. Who's to say who should have it if the medal came back into the family - or that all would agree with the fate proposed by a few?

I don't refer to any particular VC here - just the principle. Surely, the original honour is what counts, not the bauble itself - especially after the man who was entitled to wear it has gone.

Peter
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donno


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Lincolnshire
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I've seen the superb collection of Australian VCs i nthe Australian War Memorial at Canberra Does any know how many British VCs are out of the country. How many have the Americans got I wonder? Incidentally my dad was in No5 (Army) Commando and was at Kangaw i n Burma when Lt Knowland won his VC posthumously

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Points of Interest.
TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
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Dear Peter (W) and Peter (E),
good points are raised here to maybe illustrate the difference of opinion that exists.Bill Speakman had to sell his Victoria Cross because he had five children to care for and to repair a faulty roof on his cottage.In this case the sale of his Victoria Cross provided money for a worthy cause and was his immediate priority.The public will remember Bill Speakman's heroics rather than the Victoria Cross that symbolises his actions.Any recipient of a Victoria Cross is indeed free to decide what he wishes to do with the decoration,as are any descendants he passes it on to and also any future purchaser.If a recipient or descendant of the recipient,then decides to donate to a regimental museum,what facility would be afforded them to have access to their ancestor's Victoria Cross.
It is good that Lord Ashcroft has decided to have the original Victoria Crosses on display and this will be a huge plus for the collection.
Interesting family history for Peter Ewart.As is the case with any campaign medals or bravery awards for ancestors,they eventually become lost to become untraceable.Whilst i'de like to see the campaign medals of my grandfather who fought in WWI and his two elder brother's who were killed at the Battle of Arras,I haven't a clue where they eventually ended up.No doubt they were sold to feed a large family with rumbling stomachs.It always seems that whilst the layers of descendants
multiplies rapidly,there always seems to be one who 'carries the torch' for their ancestor,with less descendants being interested in their ancestor's military history than descendants that are interested.
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Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 437
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Did anyone notice that the programme didn't actually say why Hitch was awarded his VC. It described his wound, where and when he received the VC, but not what he got it for? Being televisual?
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Rich
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Tony..your comment regarding the medals that they... "become lost...becme untraceable"....I'd think that Britain doesn't have say a registry for the VC's given and consequently who holds and owns them then? If not, perhaps something to think about?
peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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I'd think that Britain doesn't have say a registry for the VC's given and consequently who holds and owns them then? If not, perhaps something to think about?


Rich

I think there is enough government interference in people's lives here already thanks very much.

Peter
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Rich
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ah.. so you're not too enamored of a "Keeper of Her Majesty's VC's" in her royal retinue, eh?..Wink...
Coll
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Not sure this posting has any bearing on what's written previously on this topic, but regarding the selling of VCs rather than donating to museums, etc., I can only say personally, if I had a VC, whether my own or an ancestor's, and thought it may ease financial problems or help towards paying costs connected to the health of myself or family, I'm afraid I would indeed sell it, for the highest price. After all, as mentioned previously, it would be my property to do with as I please, whether considered right or wrong.

Health and money are a priority these days and always have been, and anything that would lighten the burden of either, would be an action I'd be willing to take. I may not be happy about selling it, as I'm sure those who have actually had to felt, but there it is, and it would be wrong for anyone to criticise anyone who did so.

As mentioned recently, what better use for a VC, either by the person awarded it, or their descendants, to ease any kind of suffering they may be enduring.

My opinion only. I'm not looking for any reaction or responses.

Coll
Eagle Eyes.
TonyJones


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Essex
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Dear all,

Julian,the entire extended Hitch family noticed what was said about Fred Hitch VC on the programme.Mrs Sandra Barker called me by telephone
at 21.02,Sunday 3rd December,then the rest of the Hitch family rang Sandra.I am currently trying to sort this matter out with C5 and Empire Media to correct the account included about 1362 Private Fred Hitch VC
in the programme on the basis of:

'De mortuis nil nisi bonum'

The researchers have made a homophonic association between the words 'attested' and 'arrested' which is why the 'petty criminal' statement was included in the programme.You can't libel or slander a dead person but a more balanced account of the life and times of Fred Hitch VC should have been featured in the programme.I am still waiting for a reply from C5's legal compliance team,who will pobably get back to me in the near future to say that no legal aspects have been breached in the account of Fred Hitch VC.

Rich-a registry would be a good idea but who would take on such a mammoth task other than the government.

Peter W-they will interfere more if they spend another term in office.Gorden Brown already has plans for the next decade for fiscal policy
contructed specifically as 'vote winners'.

Coll-irregardless of an individual's choice to be able to do as they please with their campaign medals or bravery awards,I find it vey sad that anybody who has served monarch and country is placed in a situation like this in the first place;they should be better looked after.

Cheers guys.Tony.
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Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Dear All,

I have not got Fred Hitch's file in front of me - so I am recalling things from memory.

Fred was recruited into the army by an army pensioner - there was no army officer being available - so the pensioner took Fred to a nearest magistrate so the oath of allegiance could be properly administered and witnessed. The following day Fred made his way to Brecon to have his medical and be finally approved.

Some kind soul when writing up the story of Fred Hitch - put 'two and two together and made five' - ah, magistrate - he must have been in trouble - therefore he was brought up in front of the magistrate for a minor felony and given the choice of taking the punishment or joining the army. Not True!!! And all other so called researchers have continued to build on that fictitious story. Fred was no petty criminal.


Last edited by Martin Everett on Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:16 am; edited 2 times in total

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Martin Everett
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Keith Smith


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NSW, Australia
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Just a follow-up to the comment above about the Australian War Memorial being a repository for many VCs. One was sold at auction here recently, in poor condition, for several hundred thousand dollars. The anonymous buyer immediately donated it to the AWM.

KIS
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