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Little Big Horn & Isandlwana
Martin Everett


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Brecon
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Coll,

I received a glossy flyer this morning for a new book. Your chance to give us a review........

Little Big Horn & Isandlwana: Kindred Fights, Kindred Follies
by Paul Williams

Lt Col George Custer and Lt Col Anthony Durnford had much in common....

Available
amazon.com
borders.com

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Martin Everett
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Martin

Thankyou for letting me know about the book.

Coll
Tony


Joined: 19 Jul 2007
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Hi, my name's Tony, an avid reader of 19th Century military history. I've read Little Bighorn & Isandlwana by Paul Williams, having bought one through Amazon, and can recommend it as an excellent read. I thought I was well aware of the parallels between these two battles having read The Dust Rose like Smoke, but this is a very different book. When you read a detailed account concentrating on the battles, the repetition of events and mistakes right down to Durnford's deployment when approaching the Zulus is nothing short of amazing. A good read for anyone interested.

Tony Very Happy
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tony.ashford.@ntlworld,co


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Lenton, Nottingham
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Hi all,

Can anyone help? I am desperate for a copy of Little Bighorn & Isandlwana, but it is not at present available on Amazon and I had no luck on Border. Has anyone a copy they no longer want and that I could buy? I will pay anything( Very Happy ) Please let me know if you have or if you can put me in the way of a copy.

Tony.
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Tony

It is a new book and is also published on the increasingly popular "print on demand" basis. If you have a look at abebooks.com you'll see that Booksurge, a retailer (or wholesaler/distributor?) in South Carolina, has a copy for you - and you won't have to "pay anything"!

Peter
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peterw


Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 865
Location: UK
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Peter

I'm getting a price of $17.99..........

Peter
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Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Peter

...which will be welcome news to Tony, who, in his desperation, was prepared to "pay anything" - thus the modest price will obviate his need to do so!

Peter
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Rich
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heh heh and I hope he can hang on for just a bit since I see that it takes up to 4 weeks to get it printed and on top of that one or two weeks for shipping..... Cool
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Martin

'Little Bighorn & Isandlwana : Kindred Fights, Kindred Follies'. by Paul Williams has just arrived this morning.

After a quick glance through, I found it fascinating to see portraits of both Custer and Durnford together in the one book. I never thought the day would come that a publication would ever appear making comparisons between them both.

Many thanks for letting me know. Very Happy

Coll

John Young - Thanks also to yourself for the reminder about the book 'The Dust Rose Like Smoke.' Got it. Read it. Enjoyed it Wink
Rich
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So Coll..what do you think? Were Custer and Durnford say "flawed" men dumped on by circumstances? Were they themselves purely responsible for what befell them? Were they the "best" and "honorable" men their countries produced when at war? Supposed they would have met, would they have recognized themselves as kindred spirits in the eyes of fate?
.........Rorkesdriftvc.com Discussion Forum 101...3 credits...... Wink

The dongas of South Africa were separated form the Great Plains by alot of geography but we have to say history and the lives of men doing their thing during the 19th century in both areas were pretty similar.
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Rich

Good questions Rich, but I don't feel qualified enough to answer.

What I will say is that although comparative history isn't something I know much about, but if LBH is apparently compared often to Isandlwana, how do most people know of Custer but not Durnford ?

Whether they are seen as the heroes of their last battles, or their actions caused the defeats, is not the point.

In my view, the general population tend to know historical figures such as Custer, Travis/Crockett/Bowie (although known for his knife) and Leonidas by what they did last, not much of their previous history. So, if Isandlwana was such a legendary battle, how come Durnford, the man who is seen to have been in command of the camp at the time of its downfall, is hardly known if known at all ?

In my opinion, Durnford should be as well-known as the others mentioned above, he should be remembered for his last actions in this famous battle, no matter if he was right or wrong.

If he is blamed for the defeat at Isandlwana, his name should be at least known for that, as that is a crucial part of the whole story.

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You know I'd be interested from an educational point of view what you were taught in history in the early grades (we call them grades here- is that what they are called in the UK?) . As for me, I was made known about Custer and the Indians and the Plains War etc etc but no Durnford, no Isandhlwana, Zulu War etc etc. Frankly, I could understand this precisely because I'm here in the US and well I'd think our educators would focus more on Custer rather than on a war and a country thousands of miles away that had nothing to do with the US. So how does it go in the UK? Were you taught about Durnford, Isandhlwana, Zulu war etc etc? How about Custer? At the least, I'd expect that since Durnford, Isandhlwana and the Zulu war were closer to "home" I'd think that would be emphasized more in the curriculums. Custer probably would be alluded to but obliquely. On the other hand, if Custer received more emphasis I'd find that interesting. Some educational historian or historians probably felt it was important for you to know more about Son of the Morning Star than Durnford. Thus the old boy takes a historical back seat and he will be one not for the limelight.
Peter Ewart


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1797
Location: Near Canterbury, Kent, England.
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Rich

Are you joking? British history simply isn't taught in our schools, it's as simple as that. It is simply overlooked, ignored, suppressed, banished - if anything it is derided.

If you saw the national curriculum's treatment of history - not just British history - you wouldn't believe it. The teaching is often very good indeed because there are some very good and enthusiastic history teachers about, hardly aided by the decisions on the national curriculum, which - like so many subjects - suffers from the usual strait-jacket and appalling "dumbing down." To introduce youngsters to history today it is considered essential to assume (a) they are dense and (b) will find it "boring" and therefore everything must be simplified and made "accessible."

When I think of the teachers who taught me 40 years ago (probably a horrible task for them, admittedly!) and the teachers who currently teach my two sons (14 & 11) there is no comparison; the present crop are miles ahead, as the approach is quite different. I don't envy them their task, however.

You can leave school today with a fairly good grounding in the Great War and a reasonable grasp of the effects of trench warfare on the Western Front (which, of course, is fine, and was not touched upon at all in the 1960s, presumably being then too recent, and WW2 is even covered these days - current affairs!) and Roman Britain & Victorian projects will feature in the younger years, but I despair for the 1,500 years in between! Projects on certain periods and communities can certainly deepen the understanding of a topic but leave little time for an overall picture or framework of this country's story since, say, the Conquest. Without this chronological framework, how can the sequence of events be understood?

I can't remember the last time I heard a youngster taking a History "A" level or university degree in history on anything other than the Third Reich or American history. I'm sure that's not the actual case, but it certainly seems to be. History seems to come nowhere in the overall education picture - nowhere at all. Even our great and recently departed & lamented leader (I speak ironically) more than once demonstrated his quite basic ignorance of his own country's history when opening his mouth. Having acquired a television set for the first time in 35 years in recent times and been exposed to what apparently passes for general knowledge quizzes, I haven't known whether to laugh or cry when the disgraceful lack of the most basic knowledge of British history is demonstrated by what are presumably ordinary members of the British public. This was a bit of a shock and I have been embarrassed even when sitting on my own!!!


Rich, the Anglo-Zulu War does not loom large in this country's historical past, being only one of several score very small wars in a single period containing many overseas campaigns. I would not expect it to rate a mention in the curriculum of more than a line or two, just as it did in my day, whenever one of Disraeli's falls was mentioned. But one might expect the whole series of colonial campaigns and their effect on this country's history and that of the empire, to feature. Modern Britain is, after all, not just a result of, say, the Civil War and the Bill of Rights, but of the legacy of empire in much more recent times, which affected - and in many cases still affects - every family. The make-up of our population also reflects this period.

With regard to the Durnford/Custer question, if I walked down Canterbury High St tomorrow and asked each person I met, I would not expect a single one among the first thousand to have heard of Durnford. I'm not too concerned about that. I dare say a huge number will not have heard of Custer either, but those long enough in the tooth to remember all the Wild West films of the '50s and '60s, as well as the cowboy comics we used to read, would find the name familiar. (But would they be able to differentiate between this chap Custer and Crockett, Buck Jones, Roy Rogers, Buffalo Bill or the Man from Laramie? I don't know. I certainly lump them all together as a result of the trans-Atlantic invasion of these names during my childhood). How many of those in the street who had heard of Custer would have any facts at their fingertips as a result of their reading a book about him or LBH, (as opposed to the internet or via Hollywood) would not, I suspect, be that large.

I thought I'd contribute to this thread during a very brief coffee break but clearly something took over. I hope I'm wrong with most of the above but I'm not optimistic. Any teachers about who can fill us in - or cheer me up? Woody? Anyone?

Peter
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Peter:
Well you've thrown me for a loop on this one. I didn't know of that state of the affairs when it came to history in the UK. If what you say is true perhaps that's why the play "The History Boys" came out. In this case, maybe to shine a light on that problem? The two professors each had his own way of teaching the subject. One the old "didactic" way the other the new "contentious" way.

There's some irony in all this I think. When I was there last year I marveled at how much Britain relies on history and the past for its employment stats. What I saw sure differs from what was said and it seems there's some kind of conflict going on with the study of history.
I don't know. Maybe everybody got tired of the responsibilities of 'Empire"
and the angst it perhaps caused in people and society?
mike snook 2


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 920
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Well said Peter.

M
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Little Big Horn & Isandlwana
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