rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - Zulu film

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:51 pm

John..thanks for the heads up..I'll take a look!...PS..Martin Shaw was in OD and he went on to do "The Last Place on Earth"....the story of the race for the South Pole between Scott and Amundsen...now that was a real good BBC series in my opinion..

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Mike
Your last posting takes us right back to square one.
If, as a historian, (this also applies to the anoraks. No offence guys.) your only requisite for the movie remake is historical accuracy then you don't need a movie. If you don't seek (in the remake) the special appeal of the original then all you require is a well made documentary. Without lifting the remake with that "appeal" what's the point of a MOVIE remake?

The special appeal of your books (apart from the research) is that your descriptive style reads like a screenplay and the events unfold in a way that I feel I am watching a film of the battle.

However, it is not enough for a successful movie. The movie screenplay for the remake must also add the certain magic of the original (which no one has yet actually identified) to take it above and beyond just being a ..... battle.

As I said in my previous posting, it would be worthwhile to list some pointers on why Zulu had that appeal. Then it needs to be transalated into the screenplay of the remake otherwise the remake will, at best, be a very average film. Accurate but average. No one is hooked and no one bothers to see it again.

Any one up for writing a screenplay? Smile

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:04 pm

Didn't know they'd made a film of Burgess's book! (Behind the times here as usual). I acquired my copy of Seven Men at Daybreak in the 1960s and only recently realised I couldn't find it any more. Another book lent and not returned!

I used to hitch-hike to Prague each summer in the '60s and early '70s and one year I made a point of finding and visiting the church of St Cyril & Methodius on Rosslova Ulice (going by memory here now!) where they tried to smoke and flood them out. The big slit in the wall was pitted with gunfire and a wilting red posy sat in the niche. I also caught a tram out to the suburbs to locate the street corner where Heydrich's car slowed down for the shooting. (Well, not for the shooting but you know what I mean). Took a bus trip out to Lidice, near Kladno, to see the site of the destroyed village and the newly built one. A memorial garden & visitor centre contained photos of all the murdered population and the film the Germans took as they shot all the males. Visited this memorial on each return but haven't been back to Prague since the Iron Curtain came down.

If there is a DVD which is faithful to the book I might even get it myself!

Rich - great minds think alike. We also watch the Alastair Sim version every 24th Dec!

Peter

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:11 pm

,
One thing forum , we have a " live one " when it comes to films and accuracy married to cinematic effect , i don`t know how directors and producers manage to get a film out which please everyone , can you imagine what the 1964 production of " Zulu " would have been like with all the special effects and expertese we have today ! . Getting the combination in the right proportions is an art form in itself and the very least i hope about this topic is that we have planted the seed of a POSSIBLE remake / newer version of " Zulu " in the not too distant future . There is a space film out there with NO actors , just voice overs with Donald Sutherland the voice i recall of the middle aged bald man in this film , heaven forbid we have a virtual reality film made of Zulu ! .

I think a happy marriage of accuracy and fact can be a major part of a " new " film of this genre . It is quite obvious we have wise folk of a high standard that film makers can call upon if such a project got off the ground . I have yet to get a copy of the film , " Guns At Batasi " in which " Dicky" Attenborough played a fiesty RSM i believe , was this film just fiction or based on a true story ? . The Charge of the Light Brigade was as i recall pretty accurate which did not mar my enjoyment of the film and so on . Yes we can align accuracy with film makers requirements and a chuffing Happy Christmas to you all once again , " Sapper " Mr. Green

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:21 pm

Peter..you're in luck too as john said the dvd of "Operation Daybreak" is available....and it's great that you visited those areas in Prague..now that's something I'll probably do in your footsteps..

Sapper..I've been thinking that the remake the next time around would probably focus a little more in depth on the Zulu than in the original. Wouldn't it be great to get the cinematic feel of the not only the British discussing tactics but the Zulu and how they approached the battle?
And I think this would real apt for the film on Isandhlwana since it required precise planning by the Zulu commanders. To get a "you-are-there" look at the Zulu council would be amazing...and..and...we hear them speaking Zulu.......subtitles OK.

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:15 pm

Isandlwana and/or Rorke's Drift from the Zulu perspective is a good idea, but I'd prefer a film giving more structure (within reason) to who the main British participants were - characteristics, personalities, etc., as we do know quite a lot about them, their actions, and some of what they said.

Isandlwana would be my favourite to hear about. I'd be really keen to see Col. D., etc., and how they are portrayed.

Operation Daybreak was a great film. You really did feel saddened when they didn't make it out.

Alan - Got your message. I'm delighted, but not deserving I don't think. I've written a lot of postings, but not many of quality.

Thankyou.

Coll

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:33 pm

John,
Yes, the Dodge City episode of "Cheyenne Autumn" is downright eccentric, but I've always thought it an interesting and under-rated (though flawed) film.

Mike,
Sorry to hear your technology has let you down (I know the feeling). Sadly it leaves both of us stuck in our entrenched positions and our argument at stalemate...

Leigh,
I'm sure you meant to write 'discuss' not 'disgust' and 'embrace' rather than 'embarrass', but I'm afraid there are some contributors to this forum who may prefer to go with your typos!

Sapper,
You ask "can you imagine what the 1964 production of "Zulu" would have been like with all the special effects and expertese we have today?" Yes - bloody awful, if the recent "Elizabeth - The Golden Age" (from the director of the last "Four Feathers" remake) is anything to go by!

A final thought for Christmas. Some years ago, I remember having a conversation with the elderly neighbour of a friend who told me that he didn't like most movies, and didn't read novels, because they were mere fiction. Only true stories held his interest and seemed worthwhile; everything else was a waste of time. The best film he'd seen, he said, for its authentic telling of a great true story was - "The Godfather". I think it broke his heart when I told him (rather tactlessly, in retrospect) that Coppola's film was based on a novel which, aside from one or two rumoured resemblances to real people, was pure fiction. So much for dramatised documentary! Here endeth the lesson (for now).

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:24 pm

Sheldon:

Well I have to confess I'm wondering what I'm going to see when I watch Liz.the Golden Age. I was one who enjoyed the first "installment". I'm kind of a sucker for good costume dramas. This second one looks as if it fell off the table, eh? A review said it was and I quote.."pitched at the level of a Jean Plaidy romantic novel". Well I'm not familiar with this lady nor her writings but I think it is not to hard to see that the reference here isn't too encouraging... Wink

...

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:45 pm

Can of worms.....possibly.

I have a copy of "Seven Men at Daybreak" by Alan Burgess, which is an enthralling read. With so many of the principal characters deceased, Burgess had to imagine what they would have said/thought....as I suspect is the case with "Operation Daybreak", especially the final scene in the crypt.

Lidice and Oradour.....dark, dark deeds.

Peter

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:13 pm

,
Dear Rich and Forum , I think we are moulding the germ of a possible film which will appease us all . Stronger characters , Zulu side of things , tighter accuracy ( sorry ) , closer to actual happenings could go towards a remake of Zulu and Zulu Dawn . In 1964 Zulu was a change from the films of that era , a decade before we had biblical epics and a certain animator ( remember the skelton fight in Jason & The Argonauts ? ) of the time were for me a wonder . Westerns never die although not a favourite of mine but as has been said about the Alamo and the Gunfight at the OK Corral , which one is the better ?, the original or the remake ?

What is the appeal about Zulu ? , many things i think as it was a great film of it`s time , we are now 43 years down the line and as has been suggested let`s see something from the Zulu side , see Dalton as a much stronger character , at least mention Ammunition Smith or Driver RE Robson if that character ( s ) fits in with a remake. As there has not been a remake we can`t compare it to the 60`s film , i am not suggesting the Zulu have a mortar company or the defenders have machine gun nests or Claymore mines for instance , that would be ridiculous . No lets get all these brilliant minds together with the film makers and thrash it out over a few " lemonades " and a curry and see if a compromise can be reached and such a film made. I think myself it is a viable proposition , " Sapper " Wink

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:17 pm

Michael

Personally, I'd like � 200+ million, to make a film about Isandlwana.

As Maximus said in 'Gladiator' -

" I will win the crowd. I will give them something they've never seen before. " Wink

The modern 'Tombstone', 'Wyatt Earp', 'The Alamo' are best.

I saw the old Henry Fonda/Tyrone Power James brothers film(s) There were 2, I think. One plus a sequel.

I preferred 'The Long Riders', that used actual actor brothers to play all the different groups of brothers in the film.

I'm quite interested in seeing the new Jesse James film starring Brad Pitt, to see how it matches up to those previously.

I wonder if there is still talk of him doing a film about ol' Custer ?

Coll

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:44 pm

Sapper
Brilliant! You're now questioning what needs to go into the remake in addition to historical accuracy.

I've previously stated that, in my very humble opinion, the historical innacuracies actually helped to give Zulu the "appeal" it no doubt has. No one has yet disagreed with me.
Unfortunately, they will need to dropped. The question is, what does the screen play need to satisfactorily replace them?

Here's the first poser- For the climax of the remake: The actual battle at RD fizzled out into sporadic tussles. (Unfortunately, not good cinema)
The original film showed a very orchestrated three rank fire which repusled the (historically innacurate) final Zulu charge. (Good cinema).
Anyone any thoughts on what could now be used for the final climatic scenes of the remake?

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:49 am

,
Dear Mel , you make valid points about content and historical accuracy which is fine , i wonder what Cy Enfield and Stanley Baxter knew about the actual occurences at Rorke's Drift and what we saw on film ? . When i first saw Zulu i had no idea just what happened and while a documentary must by it`s very nature be as close to 100% correct when portraying a film different criteria come into play. I saw a damn good action film and any film of that nature , especially when telling a true story is a difficult beast to tame . For my tuppence worth i ask if ever a remake was considered more attention to uniforms ( condition ) major characters ( Dalton ) and people actually there would go a long way to at least appease me to some degree . Yes , Jack Hawkins played a fine role but " Ammunition " Smith was there as was Robson and yet both were absent in the 1964 film . Getting the condition of the tunics more to 9 months under the sun would be part of better accuracy , we see pristine uniforms , medals and incorrect rank ( Nigel Green ) , as to the actual DRAMA of the day and how you portray it to end up with a gripping , entertaining film is the " duty " of a good director and producer as i see it . Getting this right is i think something we could aspire to 43 years after the original . It seems most opinions lean towards remakes as the " better " ( more acurate ? ) version of the film . I like " Breaker Morant " very much indeed and as far as i am aware it is accurate , can someone confirm this please ? . If accurate it did not mar a good film as far as i am concerned Mel . For the " nth " time i am asking for a happy marriage of fact , accuracy , a sprinkle of fiction coupled with drama , a good story and a script that is entertaining as well as feasible , put that mixture into the pot and perhaps we could expect a good remake of not only Zulu but Zulu Dawn as well ( ? ) . Is it too much to combine both stories in one new film or is that stretching this theme too far i wonder ? . Whatever the end result ( if made ) there will a plus and minus side to things , i think it could be done given the right ingredients , i hope others do as well , all the best as ever " Sapper " Razz

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:30 am

OK, so what makes a good movie? The same thing that makes a good book. Essentially, good characters that we can empathise with and a good story that is well-paced with a build up of tension to the climax and a final denouement. Zulu won our hearts with characters that we could empathise with and a build up of tension as the characters, about whom we cared greatly, faced a foe intent on killing them. They survived, for which we cheered. Therein lies the secret of a good book/movie.

Zulu Dawn failed because we were assaulted with too many characters moving from location to location too quickly for us to get a real grip on the characters and the story. Basically it tried too hard. (Some films still do that today)

Having just recently read some manuscripts (fiction) for my publishing company, I can tell you that a lot of them failed for not fleshing out the characters and having a plot that dribbled along. Any future screenplay must have these elements featuring strongly or else it will fail whether or not the uniforms/accoutements/horses/wagons/locations are authentic or not.

If you doubt me, analyse why it is you like a certain book/movie and my bet that it is characters and plot that do it for you.

Dawn

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:03 am

Dawn
Thanks for your input. You quite rightly say that a film must have a build up of tension to the climax and, of course, Zulu has this (innacurate)climax. The actual events at RD did not, so I'm wondering what events could be used in the remake instead.
I'm hoping that no one suggests a proposed scene where Chelmsford comes charging to the rescue. Smile

Sapper
We're on the same side here. I'm merely asking for opinions on how the screenplay (the director cannot direct the scenes if they are not in the screenplay in the first place) could provide the ingredients for an accurate film that has the quality appeal of the original. I'm asking because, frankly, I don't think that it can be done. for the reasons I have already stated.