rorkesdriftvc.com :: View topic - Zulu film

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:12 pm

,
Greetings Mike Snook 2 wise sage of the Forum , in days of yore or even Rome our Mike would be a Senator , surviving on his wits and dispensing wisdom to the lower ranks ( me ) . I hope the holiday went / is going well for you Mike ? .

Even today we still don`t have a PRECISE list of men actually at Rorke's Drift despite 4 lists produced including one by an officer not even there ! as we all know . I don`t want to open up old wounds by saying things like " The officers at Rorke's drift got VC`S because they were officers " , that remark would be too inflammatory if said in earnest , which i don`t of course .

We have VC`S awarded after the death of certain men when the case was only awarded if the man survived . Dalton was not very well portrayed in " Zulu " but i don`t want to see a remake just set around him Mike , he got his VC " late " as i understand it , was the War Office pressed into giving him one ? .

I am not going to get into the arguement over ADENDORFF on this item, i have strong opinions about his participation at events on Jan 22 1879 but that is for another time and well covered in this forum .

I can`t quote each source regarding Dalton Mike but believe on the literature i have read on him over the years he was consulted by Chard & Bromhead and argueably they based SOME of their opinions on his knowledge of the country and habits of the Zulu in battle , he was an experienced NCO albeit retired but his knowledge i believe was sought on that day.

How much ( if any ? ) did Chard & Bromhead take advice from Adendorff and so on . You could argue Surgeon Reynolds was only doing his duty as a doctor but i don`t want to go down that route either Mike . Lets ask opinions on whether the forum believes that Dalton was the architect of the defence of Rorke's Drift or merely a " bit " player. There was the case i believe for a Pte Joseph Williams to have won a VC had he survived at Rorke's Drift , did anyone take his case up or did they say , " Time to close the book on the actions of Jan 22 nd 1879 " ? .

C / Sgt MABIN did not get a LSGC medal after 30 years unblemished service , he got another instead , is there a case for him to get an LSGC medal after all this time Mike ? . Your a legend in your own lunch time Mike , is there mileage in writing a book on Dalton as you see it ? . In your opinion Mike were the 11 VC`s won that day all justified and especially the one awarded to Dalton ? , best to all for 2008 , " Sapper " Mr. Green

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:37 pm

I've read that Dalton did advise on some aspects of the defences at Rorke's Drift, but I'd be kidding myself, if I said I knew better than any historians on the subject.

Dalton, as well as others, may be passed-by again in a new film, due to what I think others are trying to say, about who and how many of the participants can be represented in films about Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift, without including too many, which is unfortunate, to say the least.

Isandlwana ? What about Capt. Shepstone, Capt. Younghusband, Lt. Scott, Lt. Pope, Lt Godwin-Austen, etc., etc. ? They all deserve to be in a new film about that engagement, but I don't think everyone can be present in a movie, without it getting complicated. Glenn has described such previously.

Although good discussion is truly fascinating about new films, something really has to be made first, to give us something to 'work with', regarding the rights and the wrongs of filming a modern version of either of these battles.

Coll

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:31 pm

,
Coll , i think you have hit upon the prime reason why we may never see a re-make of " Zulu " or " Zulu Dawn " , just who is mentioned , expanded on and who do you leave out ? . With the advancement of knowledge we have today i am still convinced we could get a viable film out 43 years after the 1964 film , it is down to script writers and those with the knowledge to get a balanced script & plot to satisfy the great majority .

I am sure it can be done with leanings to my beef , ACCURACY and we have Sheldon Hall and Mike Snook about the best in the business to come up with a balanced script for this new film with of course input from many members of this forum i would anticipate . Thats my 2p worth Coll , " Sapper " Wink

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:34 pm

A Film Historian and a Military Historian in agreement about the contents of a new AZW film ? Shocked

Mike or Sheldon will probably respond to this themselves, but I'm not too sure it is possible - or is it ?

From what I can gather during this discussion, there is quite a lot would need to be considered, to appeal to both of the historians in their fields of expertise. Not sure it would work.

I'm sure many aspects would be unanimous, but then, getting down to the nitty-gritty of film/military history, there could be several issues, that can't be 'backed down' from, by either side. What they would be ? - I know not.

As an enthusiast, I have the freedom of 'jumping' between film and history, without too much difficulty. Although I know what I like, and what I would accept, as a representation of a historical event.

Professionals, however, do not have that luxury, and must stick by what they believe to be right, regarding their own expert views.

Coll

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:21 pm

Hi all,

Well, without wishing to answer for either Mike or Sheldon, both of whom are some of the best in their fields, I do find the idea of a screenplay as pitched rather hasty. While I am sure everyone has a film in them if they dig deep enough, and, if they put their minds to it, either of these fine men could tackle such an obstacle, their positions as well respected film and military historians do not make either of them dramatists or good screenwriters. I try, God knows, with my screenplay, and I wonder sometimes how the hell some manage it.

I suppose, being only an amatuer enthusiast myself, that should a film be made, Mike would be the chap hired as Historical Advisor and Sheldon the fellow who writes the accompanying 'making of' book etc. If Mike wrote a screenplay based on HCMDB then we'd be left with many characters, a lot of tactical involvement and barrels of facts. All thrilling stuff to us in literary form, but on film? It could get tedious. A well written film requires hell of a lot more than 'G company were actually wiped out first and never made it back to camp' etc. These men need to be given personalties, backgrounds, good qualities, evil qualities. They should challenge what they have been pitted against. Take note of what they see and the possible evil of it all. There must be inner conflict, respect, disrespect, good and bad, dark and the light! Blood and toil, heroism and cowardice. We know that the Isandlwana saga provides all of this but writing a screenplay with emotive and compelling characters is much less simple than having a well respected historian take the helm. Sheldon's faultless book on Zulu will tell you such.

What Coll says about Pros sticking 'by what they believe to be right' is only too evident in this discussion. Sheldon says that Zulu would have been awful with modern effects. I totally agree, it had none of the gadgets of today and yet still gives more of a thrill than some Hollywood sewage. Why? The script was piping hot! That, at the end of the day, is what is key.

Thanks for reading my little speech!

Cheers,

Glenn Razz

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:09 pm

,
No one likes a know it all or barrack-room lawyer in ANY field , Lord knows i have come across many in my years on this planet ! . In this forum we have many a wise sage with vast amounts of knowledge in this subject , all with variance in opinion , knowledge and understanding . When i look at such as Ian Knight , Ian Castle , John Young , Dr A Greaves , Mike Snook , Sheldon Hall to name but a few , we have such as Peter Ewart , John Keighley, Julian Whybra etc alongside these wise sages i am happy in the belief we can and should pool all these sources when it comes to even considering a remake of such a film as Zulu and Zulu Dawn , i think i am on safe ground when i say of the two Zulu is consdidered the better ( ? ) .

With the advancement of knowledge and effects the clever thing is to utilise this alongside better understandings of what happened on Jan 22nd 1879 . There is a danger of getting " too involved " and as has been pointed out just who do you include and who do you exclude ? . Thank goodness i don`t have that headache to consider ! .

I think the film ( if made ) could be called " 1879 " and if after 43 years they could not come up with a viable script and screenplay then as far as this individual is concerned it would be a sad thing . Steven Spielberg said ( i believe ? ) he would never do a follow up to " ET " , what are the odds on another " Rocky Film " ? , blimey talk about " milking " a story line ! . The series of film called " Planet of the Apes " was good for its time and even spawned a tv series .
Clint Eastwood made a recent pair of films ( Letters from Iwo Jima ) in which it was seen from both Japanese and American side of things , why not a film ( s ) about the Zulu from both sides ? , again with due considerations to content , accuracy , special effects , story line and so on .

I think there is mileage in making such a film ( s ) and we all have variable opinions as to the content , presentation and inclusion , omission of central characters in such a project . I would like to see a little more attention to the accuracy of the uniforms that day for instance , surely not to much to ask ? . Yes it can be argued that facts if portrayed rigidly could never match the the 1964 film , saying this i was lucky to have as a present the new adaptation of Zulu on dvd , a medium this film scores on as i see it . I love outtakes and divergent opinions but still maintain " we " could produce a viable film after 43 years of the ORIGINAL . I bow to those with greater knowledge and hope at the end of the day the seed planted will one day match or even better that wonderful film of 1964 which started it all , my sincere wishes for us all in 2008 , better health , wealth and happiness for all and if Spurs can score 11 goals in just two games there is hope eternal in this world , " Sapper " Wink

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:22 pm

The possibility exists, that there may be someone out there who is 'up to the task' of writing an Isandlwana or Rorke's Drift screenplay, who can step 'outside the box' and add aspects, not before considered.

It doesn't have to be a professional screenwriter, military historian or film historian, but an amateur version of all three, who might do alright.

For instance - I've mentioned several ideas before (good and bad) but some I like and might advance further.

Scarily, I do believe you can add new items, if written-in well, will not jar the eye too much.

Say, I want Durnford to wear the same leather sling as Hitch does in the famous photograph of him, what would be wrong about that ?

Or, have an adventurer like Quatermain armed with an Express Double-barrelled rifle, who says he knew Gen. Custer personally, and that he owned the actual knife that Jim Bowie had at the Alamo ! Shocked

Far-fetched ? Not really. Remember, there were some big storytellers going around at the time of the Zulu War 1879, with tales of fortune and action.

I like the idea that such a character 'claims' to have known Custer, as you can imagine his reaction when he first saw Durnford ! Shocked

Thoughts of - " Not again ! " running through his mind. Wink

I'd like to introduce other interests of mine into the story - chess, etc., as well as a salute to other films.

I know it sounds frightening, but you must view it as an audience, in the fact that the next scene, will never be exactly - " I knew that would happen."

Suspense and the unexpected has a place too, even if some disagree.

Coll

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:09 pm

,
Dear Coll , i am beginning to see " the light " about a possible new film ( s ) re 1879 aligned with content as laid out by you . Different but viable aspects such as you mention COULD be part of a new era as regards films of the Zulu war , a film about Ulundi , Inyenzane ( the third battle on that day of days ) , Hlobane and so on , how about a film about the death of the Prince Imperial called " Death Of A Prince " or " The Last Napoleon " , the possibilities are almost endless i would have thought ? . It would take us away from a remake as such but still if handled properly be factual as well as entertaining . You know there is even the ( at least in my fevered imagination ) possibility of doing a TRILOGY of films about the events of Jan 22 nd 1879 . A film about each of the battles that day , starting off with lets say , " The Forgotten Battle " , " Isandlwana " next , followed by" Rorke's Drift " to finish off the series of three films ( ? ) . Would such a series of films take away the arguement about a remake of Zulu not matching the 1964 film ? , even one film of this nature would involve vast amounts of input let alone three ! . Costume dramas are the lifeblood of the BBC it seems so why not a series of films about the Victorian soldier for us to feast on ? . Just watch then the arguements about what to include and leave out ! , over to you forum , " Sapper " . Wink

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:49 pm

Isandlwana would be the best film to make first, due to the fact that it would (hopefully) have many costumes created, as well as equipment, wagons and such, that would then be available for a sequel about Rorke's Drift, rather than the other way about.

If Rorke's Drift was made first, there would have to be more costumes, etc., supplied for a second film about Isandlwana.

Better having a sequel, than a prequel (which 'Zulu Dawn' was)

Isandlwana would be preparing the ground for a film about Rorke's Drift, in the fact that most would then know that a large portion of the British force was wiped out, and Zulus were heading for a small post, where only a handful of men were there to defend it, knowing that several times their number were killed earlier in the day.

I think this would let people appreciate more, what must have been going through the minds of these men, awaiting the Zulus arrival.

I can just see the Special Edition set with the new Isandlwana film, new Rorke's Drift film and extras (behind-the-scenes, documentary with Sheldon Hall ! Wink

and interview with author and military historian Mike Snook ! Wink

)

I'd buy several copies ! Very Happy

Coll

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:16 am

Graham,

I wrote a screenplay some years back entitled The Last Napoleon which following the life & death of the Prince Imperial.

The centrepiece of the work was the Carey court-martial, which following the trial verbatim. Much of the other text included actual or attributed quotes.

We had discussions with two very well-known French actors for the roles of Eugenie & Louis.

Sadly, the backer of the project invested in another project which swallowed up the money he set aside for the production costs, and we were forced to look elsewhere for funding.

The proposed new backers from the U.S.A. insisted on certain changes. First to go was the title, they were of the opinion that the American viewing public would be asking was this a part of series, if this was the Last, had they missed the First? Next to go was the court-martial, as they considered there to be too many characters involved. New scenes were invented courtesy of their creative minds suchas; clandestine meetings between Louis & King Cetshwayo, shades of Khartoum & Zulu love interest for Louis. Needless to say I ditched my involvement with the project and got on with real life.

John Y.

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:26 pm

John,

Terry Langman gave me a copy of "The Last Napoleon" for perusal, (was it really ten years ago?) and this thread prompted me to read it again.
The film makers obviously thought that it needed some sort of "injection" to make it appeal to the mass audiences. Their proposals were, obviously, over the top but this is exactly the point I have been making in this thread.

An accurate, historically correct screenplay may make a good TV "Timewatch" documentary, but doesn't necessarily make a good appealing film so the screen play will have to inject some "historically innacurate" scenes. The real problem in coming up with a remake, is what exactly should be necessary and permissable?

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:05 pm

Would a good place to start, be to not term a new film a remake ?

I know by doing a film based on an event covered before on the big screen will cause comparisons to be made between old version - new version.

Reimagined, is a term which seems to be used quite a bit these days.

Although, it is an impossibility. I'd have liked to have seen a new film about Isandlwana or Rorke's Drift, by someone who had never set eyes on 'Zulu' or 'Zulu Dawn' Shocked

I know, I know. But the pressure to make a film for the better, compared to films that have gone before, puts a lot of writers off - I think.

Is it possible to write a screenplay, whilst at the same time, detaching yourself from these original films ?

Comparative Film History (is there such a phrase ?) can spoil things, because when you think about it, when 'Zulu' was made, there really wasn't anything to compare it to. However, when 'Zulu Dawn' was made, instantly it was compared to 'Zulu' itself. Had not 'Zulu' been done before, would we have been glad to at least have one film made about a battle during the Anglo-Zulu War 1879, even with its faults ?

It is a difficult problem to overcome, and decide on the right approach.

Coll

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:07 pm

,
Dear John , i was unaware that you had actually written a screenplay as described earlier , what are the odds of me making a suggestion about a film called " The Last Napoleon " ? . I think if British film producers were to get hold of such a project it might get off the ground . Do i recall at some point in the recent past talk about a film of the Prince Imperial actually made in FRANCE ? , perhaps someone can correct me on this ? . I hope you have kept a copy and who knows someone may even take this up , have a great New Year , " Sapper " . Rolling Eyes

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:05 pm

so OK you budding producers and screenplay writers and cinematographers!...please make sure you get in a couple reels with lots of facetime for the "Zulus" in that remake OK..and let's get some good Zulu character studies too..took two to tango in 1879.....and we are surely much more knowledgeable about Zulu goings-on prior to the runups at RD and Isandhlwana..hmmmm..who were the "sgt-majors" of the uNokhenke, umCijo and uMbonambi regiments??. Brave and courageous men too. This remake will take alot of work!!!

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:14 pm

,
Greetings one and all and welcome to 2008 , no over indulgence i hope of liquids contained in black bottles over the last two weeks or so , many a Sgt Major will be dusting off charge sheets ( or as we called it , a 252 or even a " fizzer " ) due to vast intakes of beverages ! , modesty in all things .

Perhaps the approach to a film ( s ) lets say called " 1879 " is one where ( is there such a creature ? ) the person concerned has NOT seen " Zulu " or " Zulu Dawn " . Yes , highly unlikely but there maybe such a beast out there ! .

I agree 101 % with a slant to more of the ZULU side of the story and would Ridley Scott or the producers of " Lord Of The Rings " be the sort of people to undertake this venture mayhaps ? . The Star Wars series of films worked as did the Bilbo Baggins set of pictures etc , why not a trio of films based on 1879 over 6 years or so telling the story aligned with much more knowledge we have available , i reckon it would take 2 years to come to a conclusion as what each or just one film would entail and if three were the way too tell " 1879 " then it gets my vote at least . Of course it is an immense undertaking but i think it has mileage , forget a " remake " / " rehash " , lets go for NEW in all it`s glory , " Sapper " Wink