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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:29 pm

My understanding was that he actually wore the undress blue frock of a Cadet of the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich. Where he had studied and which he would in principle be entitled to wear - at least in that capacity.

There are similarities, but also differences, to other contemporary patterns.

Not having been commissioned into the British Army, or the Royal Artillery (RA), even in those sycophantic times I would not imagine the RA enabling him to dress as a regimental officer. Not actually being an officer, he had no 'commissioned' authority over British troops as such. Possibly also a minor factor in the circumstances of his death.

The decision that he might after all deploy to South Africa was also taken fairly late and suddenly probably not allowing for other patterns of uniform to be properly tailored. However, tailors will work well enough once sovereigns are clinked.

G

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:04 pm

Tony,

The difference was that allegedly the Prince Imperial's false collar had embroided flaming grenades on it. I did ask when I saw the uniform if I could verify that as being fact but I think it was lost in translation, and the assistant-curator who I was with didn't quite understand my request, so I was unable to check. Other than that it was a normal R.A. pattern blue patrol jacket.

G,

I have seen the Prince Imperial's Woolwich uniform that is on display in the French army museum at the Place des Invalides.

John Y.

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:58 pm

John,
The order of dress I have in mind is the one shown to the left, here:
http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/ThePrinceImperial.html

The one to the right being another form of undress uniform, also worn as mess dress. Both, I believe, are RMA Woolwich cadet orders of dress rather than those of the RA.

G

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:04 pm

The Prince Imperial, before his family's fall from power and flight from France, had also been enrolled in the Garde Imperiale as a child

One of whose uniforms is depicted in colour here. Note the grenade device at the collar.

http://www.napoleonicsociety.com/english/zululanda.htm

Could it be this that you were shown.

G

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:40 pm

G,

I have seen the uniform that the Prince Imperial was wearing when he was killed. I can assure you that it is the blue patrol jacket - more than likely the very one that I posted in my photograph - of a Royal Artillery officer below field-rank.

The issue that Tony is referring to is the comment by the officer tasked with the recovery of the Prince Imperial's uniform, Captain & Lieutenant-Colonel the Hon. George Patrick Hyde Villiers, of 2nd Battalion Grenadier Guards. See http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol064or.html for it chapter & verse.

John Y.

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:49 pm

G,

Just so we're 'singing from the same hymn book' some photographs from my collection:

Gentleman Cadet Bonaparte, R.M.A., 1873

The French Imperial Family circa 1864, please note no grenades on the Prince Imperial's Garde Imperiale uniform.

The Prince Imperial of France in Royal Artillery Mess Dress, wearing the cuff rank insignia of a Lieutenant in Royal Regiment of Artillery, photographed in Aldershot whilst seconded to a regular battery of R.A., June/July 1875.

John Y.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:14 am

G,

With regard to your comment ...even in those sycophantic times I would not imagine the RA enabling him to dress as a regimental officer.

I�ve done some further checking it appears that the Mus�e de l�Arm�e in Paris also have a full-dress Royal Artillery tunic of the Prince Imperial�s which bears the collar and cuff rank insignia of a Lieutenant in the R.A. A photograph of the tunic appears in C. Wilkinson-Latham�s Uniforms & Weapons of the Zulu War.

It appears to me at some stage in his short life he did indeed dress in the uniform of a Royal Artillery officer.

John Y.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:18 pm

John,

Many thanks. Unfortunately the fire wall here won't let in the photographs on the main forum. I just get a box with a red cross in it that won't expand.

I don't dispute what you say, but it raises the issue of how/if he joined the British Army; which would conventionally require the swearing of an attestation oath.

Plus, the political implications of the pretender to the Imperial throne (if reconstituted) serving in the uniform of the armed forces of another country - and not yet the valued prospective ally of the Entente Cordiale.

The Prince had joined several 'British military establishment' organisations. For example he, like Coghill and Wyatt-Edghill, was a member of the Naval and Military Club at the time of his death.

So, was he just wearing the uniform - and was this whilst in South Africa, or beforehand in the UK in anticipation of being allowed a commissioned supenumerary appointment in some more general capacity? I do vaguely recall reference to him attending training with a field artillery battery, after Woolwich.

G

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:26 pm

Gallo/John

Presumably his honorary position with (or attachment to) G Battery, 24th Brigade, RHA in 1875 and 1876 for the annual summer manoeuvres at Aldershot would have enabled or entitled him to wear the appropriate uniforms, both in the field and in the mess - as per the note to one of John's photos above?

He must still have had these uniforms in 1879. It certainly looks as if he packed some sort of Artillery uniform(s) when he agreed to travel in mufti until he reached his destination:

I'm supposed to be sailing for the Cape as a traveller, and only when there am I to put on a uniform and attach myself to the general in charge of artillery. So we must be careful to warn our journals not to say I start with my battery ...

Ian Knight: With His Face to the Foe (p110/111)

He took with him a letter of introduction from the Duke of Cambridge to Lord C., whose remit was no doubt to hide him out of the way without making it too obvious. Yet Louis clearly thought he'd be reporting to the artillery. Is it reasonable to suspect that he took with him any and all the artillery uniform(s) he'd ever worn and/or still possessed - probably those worn in 1875 & 1876 at Aldershot? And perhaps slightly out of date?

Peter

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:15 am

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:04 am

Might not work, but hopefully these links will be better:

http://www.London-gazette.co.uk/issues/24597/pages/3825
http://www.London-gazette.co.uk/issues/24597/pages/3826
http://www.London-gazette.co.uk/issues/24736/pages/4083
http://www.London-gazette.co.uk/issues/24754/pages/5099

G

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:43 pm

Just a thought as to where you can see effigies of the Prince Imperial in Royal Artillery uniform; Sandhurst (formerly it stood in Woolwich) and at Saint George's Chapel, Windsor Castle.

John Y.

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:09 pm

But not here:

http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/pictures/monastery/crypt/index.php

G

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:55 pm

Hi All

I found this on a Blog:-

The picture shows his uniform and other clothes worn when he fell, together with some of the spears which killed him � the items are all in the Second Empire Museum at Compi�gne Palace.

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:57 pm

Andy,

Thanks for that.

The grenade is visible on the right side of the false collar as per Villiers' comments. They have changed the display since I saw it.

John Y.