rorkesdriftvc.com Forum Index


rorkesdriftvc.com
Discussions related to the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
Reply to topic
tonyjen1


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reply with quote
Thanks Grave1879,
That photo is fantastic for details. I've never been certain how blue to black these uniforms were, but this gives me some idea.

Just to add another level of query- The sword? After the Princes death the sword was apparently sent to Cetshwayo who returned it to the British. Where is it now? Haven't managed to find anything specific as to which sword or where it is.

Tony
View user's profileSend private message
Galloglas
Guest

Reply with quote
The statue at Sandhurst, up which I have several times climbed, is shown here:
http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/349885/napolean-prince-imperial-statue/ and was designed to indicate his dress at the time of his death.

It's original patina was more waxy, but it would appear to have been allowed to weather through.

G
Galloglas
Guest

Reply with quote
This interesting French website points out that Louis was technically obliged, whilst still a French citizen, to report for his Conscription year, making other interesting remarks.



L'ardent patriotisme qui l'anime lui fait voir, avant toute chose, l'int�r�t seul de la France, pour laquelle il voudrait un pouvoir fort, seul capable � ses yeux de r�aliser ce qu'un gouvernement d'assembl�e ne saurait ex�cuter, lui redonner son prestige. M�me si la situation semble provisoirement bloqu�e, des signes �vidents montrent que le bonapartisme remonte dans l'opinion. La place tenue � l'Assembl�e par les d�put�s de l'Appel au Peuple, est plus importante que leur nombre. Gambetta, quoi qu'il en dise, redoute l'influence � venir de celui qu'il affecte d'appeler, par d�rision, "le gamin de Woolwich". Le prince n'ambitionne pas de renverser la R�publique. Il est persuad� qu'elle va s'user, en proie � ses contradictions et � la m�fiance que suscitent les intrigues de toutes sortes dans lesquelles elle baigne. Alors son heure viendra.
Plus que jamais il �prouve le besoin de se faire conna�tre du plus grand nombre de Fran�ais. La nouvelle loi sur la conscription en vigueur en France lui donne le droit, don't il va user, de faire tirer son nom au sort en m�me temps que les autres citoyens de sa classe. Mais le 28 janvier 1878, appel� sous le nom de Bonaparte, son num�ro, le 307, ne sera pas retenu.
La vie qui lui est offerte en Angleterre est sans doute attrayante pour un gar�on de son �ge. La haute aristocratie lui ouvre ses chasses, l'invite � ses r�ceptions et � ses bals, m�me la reine Victoria, qui �prouve pour lui une r�elle affection, l'accueille volontiers � la Cour. Louis ne peut pourtant s'accommoder de cette vie oisive qui conviendrait � beaucoup de princes en exil. En mars 1878, il va nourrir l'espoir d'un vrai service ext�rieur, qui e�t �t� conforme � ses voeux, lorsque l'Autriche s'engage dans un conflit territorial dans les Balkans, en Bosnie-Herz�-govine, mais il re�oit un refus poli mais ferme de la part de l'empereur Fran�ois-Joseph. En attendant, le prince ronge son frein.
Sur l'invitation du roi de Su�de, Oscar II, il part visiter les pays scandinaves en juillet 1878. Accompagn� du comte Joachim Murat, pr�sident du groupe de l'Appel au Peuple � l'Assembl�e et du fid�le Pietri, Louis va s'arr�ter d'abord au Danemark, re�u � Copenhague par le vieux roi Christian IX, avec les honneurs souverains. Successivement il visitera Malm�, Drottningsholm, Stockholm et Goteborg. En compagnie du prince h�ritier Gustave, le voyage se poursuit en Norv�ge, dans la r�gion du Thelemark. Poursuivant en touriste, il fait des promenades sur les lacs de Tinsj� et de Nordsj�, les ascensions du Rjukanfos et du Ravnejuvet, avant une croisi�re dans le Christiana fjord au cours de laquelle il �tonne ses h�tes en plongeant du pont du navire dans les eaux glac�es.
Pour le 15 ao�t, date de sa f�te, il est de retour � Arenenberg o� il va passer ses derni�res vacances, accueillant de nombreux visiteurs, notamment le cardinal de Bonnechose, archev�que de Rouen, qui n'a pas h�sit� � s'exposer aux repr�sailles r�publicaines pour venir s'entretenir avec lui.
L'hiver s'annonce morose ; le 30 janvier 1879, le mar�chal de Mac-Mahon a d�missionn�, sans laisser de regrets aux bonapartistes. Il sera remplac� par Jules Gr�vy, honn�te homme en faveur duquel le prince pr�conise "une sympathique abstention".

La mort du Prince imp�rial

Si aucun �v�nement de quelque importance n'est � ce moment en vue en France, il n'en est pas de m�me en Angleterre o�, le 11 f�vrier, parvient l'ahurissante nouvelle du d�sastre d'Isandhlwana. Aux confins de l'Afrique du Sud, au bord de la rivi�re Tugela, le 22 janvier, les Zoulous avaient, en moins d'une heure, surpris, attaqu� et tu� huit cents soldats et trente officiers de la vaillante arm�e britannique. D�s qu'il en est inform�, le cabinet de Londres d�cide l'envoi de troupes importantes pour une exp�dition punitive, et les engagements de volontaires et de jeunes officiers se multiplient. Parmi ceux-ci, plusieurs camarades du prince viennent � Camden Place lui faire leurs adieux avant de s'embarquer. Ayant rapidement pris sa d�cision, d�s le 17 f�vrier, Louis fait part au ministre de la Guerre de son d�sir de s'engager, mais le duc de Cambridge refuse. Ne se tenant pas pour battu, le prince supplie sa m�re d'intervenir aupr�s de la reine Victoria et, devant une telle pression, mais avec beaucoup de r�ticences, l'autorisation est enfin accord�e, le 24 f�vrier. Louis pourra rejoindre, � Durban, la division que commande le g�n�ral en chef Chelmsford. Le ministre �crit � celui-ci : "Ma seule crainte est qu'il soit trop courageux." Le prince ne partira toutefois qu'en observateur, n'exercera aucun commandement et ne figurera pas aux r�les de l'Arm�e. Aucune supplication de ses partisans n'a pu le faire revenir sur sa d�cision. En toute h�te il pr�pare son �quipement, qui a d�j� servi � Napol�on III et don't le cuir est fatigu�, refuse la suggestion de plusieurs jeunes Fran�ais qui lui ont proposer de l'accompagner, et n'accepte que les services d'Uhlmann, auxquels il est habitu�. A ses amis, aux dirigeants du parti, il fait part de sa d�cision, don't il leur donne, par lettre, les raisons, toutes politiques : "Lorsqu'on appartient � une race de soldats, ce n'est que le fer � la main qu'on se fait conna�tre." La veille de son d�part il r�dige son testament et, le 27 f�vrier, apr�s s'�tre recueilli une derni�re fois aupr�s du tombeau de son p�re, il s'embarque � Southampton, sur le Danube qui fait voile vers Le Cap o� il arrive, apr�s une courte escale � Mad�re, le 26 mars.

http://www.napoleontrois.fr/dotclear/index.php?post/2006/03/25/11-le-prince-imperial

G
Galloglas
Guest

Reply with quote
However, I should have added that in the customary 'ballot' his group (307) was not actually called forward to enter the French Army.

G
tonyjen1


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reply with quote

This is supposed to be the sword Napoleon carried at Austerlitz, and also the one Louis carried with him in Zululand. The image may be a reproduction of the sword, but can anyone confirm this is the right one? Does anyone know where the original is?

T
View user's profileSend private message
Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
Reply with quote
I've got something of a "gut feeling" about this and I'm going to go with it! Where was this sword claimed to be the one Napolean carried at Austerlitz, Tony? That hardly seems like a sword that an ex-ranker would carry in the field. Check out: http://austerlitzsword.wordpress.com/author/austerlitzsword/. I realize that this particular sword was a commemorative given to Napolean AFTER Austerlitz, but the included phrase "The gentle curve to the blade that Napoleon adopted to all his swords after the Egyptian campaign is evident on this sword" is rather telling. I just can't picture the Prince Imperial facing his foes with an empty pistol and a puny "court sword".

An interesting slideshow of many images of the Prince at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL0lkAKSdmM
View user's profileSend private message
tonyjen1


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reply with quote
I absolutely agree. The first sword seems ludicrously inadequate, but it was the only one I could find that related to Napoleon and Austerlitz. It is a replica and sells on the internet as the sword carried by Napoleon at Austerlitz. They point out that although Napoleon was credited with the victory he didn't actually fight there. It is also the one which he wears in various paintings after 1800. Maybe the search engines I'm using are not up to the task.
The one you suggest seems much more suitable and practical. Louis certainly seemed to intend to use his sword in battle, and is depicted in artists drawings as having a heavier sword. Ironic that it was the first weapon he lost in the surprise attack. Thanks for the link Sawubona. You've been very helpful.

Tony
View user's profileSend private message
Julian whybra


Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 437
Reply with quote
Remember the Illustrated London News picure entitled: The Prince's Sword with the caption: Lieutenant Lysons hands the Prince Imperial's sword to British General Frederic Thesiger, Lord Chelmsford, publ. 30th August 1879, viewable on www.gettyimages.co.uk
View user's profileSend private message
Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
Reply with quote
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/86176400/Hulton-Archive

Outstanding, Julian. As I needed to do a bit of searching to view your suggested image, I've perhaps saved others the time by posting a more direct link above.

Although I don't see any curve in the blade of the sword in the woodcut, the hilt and knuckleguard look decidedly more businesslike and practicable for duty.
View user's profileSend private message
Galloglas
Guest

Reply with quote
Pleasing thought. General Buonaparte, as the 'ex ranker'.

G
Sawubona


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 1179
Reply with quote
Mea Culpa with the "ex-ranker" hyperbole, Galloglass. He was in truth never anything but an officer, albeit once a junior officer who would perhaps consider his arme blanche something more than just window dressing. I noticed that the most famous painting of Napolean, the one by David of him "crossing the Alps". pictures him with a Mamaluke-hilted sword not unlike the pattern typically carried by his British counterparts for many decades afterwards.
View user's profileSend private message
Galloglas
Guest

Reply with quote
The fun of it is we do not necessarily need to be 'right' where foreigners are concerned.....

I'm certainly no expert on swords or styles of portraiture in this period. However, an artist could rise to great prominence and very lucrative earnings if patronised by the likes of the "Emperor-in-the- making."

David's atmospheric portrait(s) and their public display at judicious moments also helped to project, even protect, N's image, interests and ambitions, as he climbed the ladder of securing his position in military and political France.

No surprises then if there are bits of artistic licence and in some instances only sufficient attention to detailed authenticity to indicate portraiture of the live individual rather than painting from other work.

There are numerous lively approximations of Zulu War scenes in the published imagery of The Graphic and the ILN, and we should not be too surprised at errors and extemporisations in them. I forget who the artist is, but there is a vivid picture of Prince Louis 'at bay' in his final moments. The sword depicted there is usually taken to resemble the sword carried by him on campaign, though very probably using a modernised steel scabbard.

Now, where were we....?

G
Galloglas
Guest

Reply with quote
How memory plays tricks!

This is the picture I had in mind, but I'd forgotten that it depicts the situation where the sword itself had already been dropped.

http://www.allposters.co.uk/-sp/Death-of-the-Prince-Imperial-in-Zululand-1-June-1879-Posters_i7209722_.htm

Maybe there's another somewhere.

G
tonyjen1


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reply with quote
One of the last photos of the Prince Imperial taken in Durban. Unfortunately can't see the sword.

View user's profileSend private message
Prince Imperials uniform
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All times are GMT  
Page 3 of 3  

  
  
 Reply to topic