![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | Sheldon - Why Always Zulu But Not Zulu Dawn ? | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Coll
Guest
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:41 pm |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Sheldon
I meant to ask this ages ago, but can't remember how I phrased my question, or where I was 'taking it'.
I'll try now. Please bear with me.
I know Zulu was/is an epic, but I'm sort of losing track how many versions have/will be released.
I've also lost track of how it has been updated, please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area, but we have - original, remastered, HD, Blu-Ray, and god knows how many other formats have/may be used to perfect Zulu, which I didn't think always needed perfecting, being the masterpiece that it is termed. When does it end ?
I know you carry the banner of leaving films alone, in the way they were made, but you don't, in my view, criticise all the modifications done to, and possibly future modifications, of Zulu.
If I may compare Zulu Dawn, which has been greatly criticised by many, to a run-down barn, then, with a bit of care and attention (and money) is renovated and restored into an outstanding barn-conversion, instead of left on the scrapheap, to be demolished or neglected.
How will people ever see any potential of other films, if they are not given such an opportunity, to be what they should have been ?
I hope this question makes sense.
Coll
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Sheldon Hall
Joined: 01 Sep 2005 |
Posts: 377 |
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:23 pm |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Hi Coll,
I THINK I know what you're asking! The reason why "Zulu" has been issued so often in so many different formats is simple - it sells. As a popular title, it can be (and has been) repackaged in numerous ways so that punters will upgrade, eg, from fullscreen VHS to widescreen, from VHS to DVD, from standard DVD to two-disc Sp Ed, from SE DVD to Blu-ray, etc, etc. (I don't think there'a Blu-ray in planning yet, but it's only a matter of time!) Having said that, none of these repackagings has substantially altered the film itself, i.e., there has been no "Director's Cut" because the film as we have it is already the Director's Cut. Successive home video editions have simply tried to improve picture and sound quality by remastering the original material.
As for "Zulu Dawn", the reverse applies: it lost money on original theatrical release so is very much a "niche" title. The copyright has changed hands several times and has never belonged to a major studio, nor have any of the various rights holders had access to the original negative, so there has never been a completely satisfactory version on home video (one in the correct 2.35:1 aspect ratio with Dolby Stereo sound). Until the various rights are sorted out and the neg recovered and restored, I don't think we'll see a decent version anytime soon - and again, its lack of B.O. success is hardly an incentive for one of the majors to acquire it. Still, you never know!
Hope this answers your question!
Sheldon
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Coll
Guest
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:41 pm |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Sheldon
Thanks for your reply.
Even updating it, but not altering the film itself, does that not mean still changing it, to suit ?
Do you know if sales equal or surpass the previous amount, each time a newer version is released, or perhaps people will get fed up with the same film, epic or not, being sold again and again as an upgrade, when I think, in general, many may be content with the copy they have at present ?
Perhaps Zulu Dawn was the wrong comparison to use, but I just feel all films should be given the opportunity of upgrading, in some way or other, as is it not the duty of the film industry to try and protect all, and not just a select few.
I know it probably comes down to individual studios and money, but how can we have film history, if some films are left, when others speed ahead ?
Do you not find, that maybe people don't recall older films, chiefly because of this reason, that they aren't kept up to pace with upgrades, so are missed out on ?
I don't know how many films have missed out, but possibly you may be able to name several, that seem to get left behind.
As I say, I don't know where I expected this topic to go, but it does appear to bother me somewhat, so felt I had to ask.
Coll
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Sheldon Hall
Joined: 01 Sep 2005 |
Posts: 377 |
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:35 pm |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
I'm afraid the answers to all these not-quite-rhetorical questions comes down to the same thing: money. The film and industry is a business, and companies don't spend any more than can expect to get back, plus an anticipated profit. So the most popular films tend to get frequently remastered, repackaged, etc, and the more obscure ones may not make it onto DVD at all.
Here are a few that have never been released on DVD to my knowledge, even in the US, but which I'd like to see uncut and in widescreen: "The Roots of Heaven" (1958), "The Big Fisherman" (1959), "John Paul Jones" (1959), "Porgy and Bess" (1959), "Pepe" (1960), "Freud: The Secret Passion" (1962), "The Victors" (1963), "Isadora" (1968), "Alfred the Great" (1969), "Goodbye, Mr Chips" (1969), "Antony and Cleopatra" (1972), "Lost Horizon" (1973). Not heard of some of these? My point exactly! Most of them flopped when they came out, some have been shown on TV in cut versions, but others have disappeared without trace. Rights issues may be involved in some cases, but most have probably just been forgotten about.
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Coll
Guest
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:24 pm |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
I've always said there was a lot of potential with Zulu Dawn, but felt it was filmed with the first or second draft of the script, instead of keeping on with it, and bettering the screenplay, through a few more drafts.
Obviously, there was more than the script at fault, being the financial aspect, amongst other things.
However, I consider that it should have began further into the Isandlwana story, perhaps beginning with the night of the 21st, or even still, the morning of the 22nd, after Chelmsford had left.
Therefore, much like Zulu, possibly with the same sort of information supplied at the start, which was the letter read by the excellent Richard Burton, to tell the story up to that point.
There is no real build-up in the first third of Zulu Dawn, which is a lot of wasted time, when audiences may lose interest quickly.
A good place to start, would be just before Col. D. arrived, when the circumstances were starting to change, introducing a sense of unease through some of the defenders, vedettes and officers alike, but the Zulu army remaining unseen to us, until, like the real event, they are located by the mounted men.
I'm a fan of Zulu Dawn, and this posting probably reads the same as many others I wrote before, but I couldn't stay quiet.
Coll
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Sheldon Hall
Joined: 01 Sep 2005 |
Posts: 377 |
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:47 am |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Edward (and Coll),
I have almost as many reservations about so-called "Director's Cuts", including the director-approved kind, as I do about studio-mangled versions. Many films need to be protected from their own directors, who are often tempted to fix unbroken films by fiddling about with them after the fact. Conspicuous offenders include Spielberg (replacing guns with mobile phones and drinks bottles in "ET"), Coppola (adding bits to "Apocalypse Now" that he was right to leave on the cutting room floor in the first place), Ridley Scott (altering the colour palette of "Alien"), Bogdanovich (changing dialogue to make a character more sympathetic) and especially Lucas (mucking up just about everything he's ever done with new digital effects). Some of these changes may have been motivated by creative second thoughts; others were frankly commercially minded, wringing another drop of revenue from old product.
As for posthumous DCs, several filmmakers have been the unfortunate victims of other people's second-guessing (always dangerous even if notes and scripts do exist to guide latecomers). Orson Welles has probably been worst affected, notably with "Touch of Evil" and "Othello". In the case of the former, Henry Mancini's tremendous music score was removed for its alleged DC - do composers not have creative rights too? Many films have had their sound effects tracks remixed or even re-recorded to add a Dolby 5.1 mix for home video - sound designers' rights, anyone?
Several alternate cuts of various Sam Peckinpah films have hit the market, none approved by the man himself and none corresponding to his "original intentions", which can only be a matter for speculation. I'm glad to have these versions as alternatives but they shouldn't be mistaken for definitive documents. The restored "Major Dundee", for example, was only a slightly longer version of the studio cut which Peckinpah always hated (the elements no longer exist to restore his own version). Fortunately, the studio concerned was honest enough not to pretend that the longer cut was a DC of any kind.
In the case of "Zulu Dawn", the problem is that most if not all of the "missing scenes" from the release version were never shot to begin with. As I have detailed elsewhere, the company ran out of money during production and was forced to cut the script as they went along, shooting only what they really needed (and sometimes not even that). So I very much doubt that there's any significant material left over to construct a longer version (other than alternate takes of scenes already in the film, which are not "extra material" as such).
The danger is to assume that longer is always better - sometimes material is cut for a good reason (it wasn't very good in the first place or didn't help the film). Sometimes these cuts are made by the director, sometimes by others who may, on occasion, know better than the director (I can think of many films which would have benefited from a second opinion on the final edit when the director has been too self-indulgent to listen to reason). And the profusion of alternate versions makes the job of a film historian very difficult - it's useful to know which was the one seen by original audiences, critics and industry peers, and to have access to it for the sake of the historical record!
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
Sheldon Hall
Joined: 01 Sep 2005 |
Posts: 377 |
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:02 am |
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/posttop_left.gif) |
![Reply with quote Reply with quote](templates/Morpheus/images/lang_english/blue/icon_quote.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |
Forgot to mention, re. "Zulu": I doubt that the Criterion edition was taken from a 70mm print (I will check my copy of the LD to be sure), but I'd be interested to know if the company claimed this was the case. The US rights have now passed to Paramount which, unlike MGM, has the stereo tracks (heard on the Region 2 editions). Par hasn't as yet issued a Region 1 version, but it might be persuaded to let Criterion do one, as with other Par films recently (e.g., "The Naked Prey", "if...."). I'd be interested to see the scenes cut from the final version (director-approved!), but God forbid that someone puts them back in...
|
|
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | Lost Zulu Dawn Material | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/ftr_right.gif) |
![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_left_post.gif) | | ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/blue/hdr_right_blue.gif) |
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
All times are GMT
Page 1 of 3
|
|
|
| ![](./templates/Morpheus/images/spacer.gif) |