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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:46 am

Can anyone let me know the source of the Benjamin Disraeli quote that is used at the end of "Zulu Dawn" - "Who are these Zulus, who are these remarkable people who defeat our generals, convert our bishops and on this day have brought the end to a great dynasty" ?

I have heard a suggestion that it was contained in a speech in Parliament.

Thanks in anticipation

Bill

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:28 am

Bill,

As far as I'm aware the quote was not made in the Palace of Westminster. I challenged a very well-known Zulu on this point as he stated it had been made in the House of Commons. I told him it couldn't be so as Lord Beaconsfield (Benjamin D'Israeli) sat in the House of Lords in 1879. I think his researcher took the blame on that one.

The quote is actually unsourced it first appeared in J.A. Froude's biography of Beaconsfield, which was published either as The Life of the Earl of Beaconsfield or simply as The Earl of Beaconsfield in 1890.

John Y.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:22 pm

John

Thanks for this. I've got a couple of biographies on Disraeli (though not Froude's) and it's not mentioned in any of them. I'm beginning to wonder if it's actually the "sort of thing" Disraeli would have said as opposed to a direct quote !!

Bill

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:13 pm

Bill

I wonder if your suspicion may well be quite close to the mark. Although it's an "oft-quoted quote" with which we are very familiar, I can't remember at all when or where I first read it. Strangely, although I assumed it appeared in many works, I've just run through most of the more obvious AZW histories which might include it, yet none of them does - suggesting there may have been a few authors who were also a little unhappy with its provenance? Even Morris, whom I'm sure would have loved such a quotation, doesn't seem to have used it, unless I've missed it.

And just where it might be particularly expected - Featherstone's or Knight's works on the Prince Imperial, for example, or Guy's biography of Colenso - there is no sign, yet many works do quote Disraeli's equally famous remark after hearing the news of Isandlwana. Perhaps Froude was the original published source, although whether Disraeli was supposed to have said it (publicly or privately) or used the comments in some correspondence, who knows? (Assuming Froude doesn't tell us, that is). I've gone through the Commons & Lords debates contained in Archives of Zululand and not picked it up, but of course these need not be complete.

The version which we get from Zulu Dawn is certainly a corruption of what had already been familiar for years, with "Who are these ..." and "this day" being changes and additions to the accepted quotation, which clearly had been adapted to be used at a certain stage of the film - but if it does not appear in as many publications as I (at least) had imagined, who is to say what the actual quote was? (Other than Froude again!). Zulu Dawn also used it completely out of context, of course, trying to change the very meaning of Disraeli's statement. He could hardly have referred to the disaster of "this day" and also complete his quote - a full four or five months before he knew the dynasty was to be finished off by the Zulus!

Peter

P.S. I've finally found where I first read it. I've just picked up the first work I ever read on the AZW (Rupert Furneaux's The Zulu War, which I came across in 1964 - not highly regarded but I was very young!) and he closes his book with this quotation and an explanation. Furneaux says it was uttered in 1879, but he leaves no bibliography and certainly cites no sources to back up his statement. The PM's words in full (according to Furneaux) were:

"A very remarkable people the Zulu. They defeat our generals; they convert our bishops; they have settled the fate of a great European dynasty." That's also how I've always understood it but how closely it follows Froude I don't know. Dizzy could, of course, have usefully reversed the first and second phrases for chronological accuracy, the "conversion" having come well before the other two developments.

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:23 pm

Peter

Many thanks for the full reply. Yes, I too had ploughed through many of the more obvious places, but with no sucesss.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone else comes up with a likely point of origin.

Bill

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:23 pm

Peter

Many thanks for the full reply. Yes, I too had ploughed through many of the more obvious places, but with no sucesss.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone else comes up with a likely point of origin.

Bill